E.35 A Conversation With Kristen Nazzaro About Entrepreneurship, Mental Health, and Believing In Your Actions

In this episode, we speak to Kristen Nazzaro, an entrepreneur with a masters degree in School Psychology. She has recently worked with entrepreneurs in the mental health field, helping them to elevate their marketing and belief in themselves. She remains a passionate mental health advocate and multi-passionate entrepreneurial endeavors. She believes that lifting the stigma for mental health will also elevate therapists find their niche and increase their business mindset.

You can find her website here.
She can be reached on LinkedIn here. 

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Steve Bisson: 0:01

Hi and welcome to finding your way through therapy. I am your host, Steve Bisson. I'm an author and mental health counselor. Are you curious about therapy? Do you feel there is a lot of mystery about there? Do you wonder what your therapist is doing and why? The goal of this podcast is to make therapy and psychology accessible to all by using real language and straight to the point discussions. This podcast wants to remind you to take care of your mental health, just like you would your physical health. therapy should not be intimidating. It should be a great way to better help. I will demystify what happens in counseling, discuss topics related to mental health and discussions you can have what your thoughts, I also want to introduce psychology in everyday life. As I feel most of our lives are enmeshed in psychology. I want to introduce the subtle and not so subtle ways psychology plays a factor in our lives. It will be my own mix of thoughts as well as special guests. So join me on this discovery of therapy and psychology. Hi, and welcome to episode 35 of finding your way through therapy. I'm Steve, if you haven't listened to Episode 34 Yet, I urge you to do so crystal part it was a great interview was very personal was very open and able to share, particularly the story of her sister among other things, and I really thought that it was worth the time. So I hope you go back and listen to that. And if you already listened to it, it's worth listening twice, I promise. But in Episode 35 We are going to talk to Kristin Nazzaro. Kristin is a lifelong mental health advocate, and student turned into a multifaceted and passionate entrepreneur who simply lit striving to live a life of purpose. She has always held the passion for understanding the mind and human behavior which eventually merged her love for children in school psychology degree. However, entropy nurse ship has found the grip on her and has changed her life for the better. And she is really enjoying that job. She's not 100% sure where her journey is going to take her but she's obviously enjoying the ride at this point. I hope the interview goes well. I've known Kristen for a while we've been talking offline for a few times now since probably last year. So hopefully you enjoyed the interview as much as I do. Hi, and welcome everyone to finding your way through therapy. I'm so excited to have my guest today we have kind of communicated through LinkedIn, we connected over zoom several times. I've truly enjoyed all our conversations. And you know, we've been able to talk for hours when we scheduled for what 30 minutes usually. So I feel great to be able to have her on because she's so interesting and has so many things that we can talk about. So Kristen Nazarro, welcome to "finding your way through therapy."

Kristen Nazarro: 2:44

It's great to be here.

Steve Bisson: 2:45

So I hope that it's not as cold where you're at as it is here in Massachusetts.

Kristen Nazarro: 2:51

Oh my gosh, is it? Not sure exactly what it is outside, but it is cold. But unlike you, I get to have my heat on. I know we talked about this a little bit before you said me quitting.

Steve Bisson: 3:05

Yeah, you can't tell me all ever all my secrets of podcasting, people are gonna know where I'm at. I'm like, locked into my basement with no heat.

Kristen Nazarro: 3:14

But that's what makes it fun.

Steve Bisson: 3:15

Exactly. So Well, Kristen. Yeah, I know who you are. We've talked a few times. But maybe you know, people listening want to know more about you. So tell me a little bit about yourself?

Kristen Nazarro: 3:24

Yeah, sure. Well, that's a loaded question that I feel like I'm not 100% good at answering yet. Because I feel like I've had so many journeys within my life. So I've started within, I wouldn't say I started but I got my school psychology degree. I was in that field for quite a long, not quite a long time, like a couple years, went into it after not being sure what I wanted to do within the psych field after getting that degree. And then eventually join COVID, I came into and found a passion for entrepreneurship. And just read a lot of books just got totally consumed by the idea of having my own impact beyond one on one settings, despite the love that I had for working with kids and the love for psychology. So I eventually went into something that was quite different. I found my way into marketing and website design specifically focused on therapists and helping them elevate their impact because I saw the need for it within post COVID era when everyone needed help but wasn't able to find it. So I eventually found that and that's what I've been doing. I'm not sure where my path is going to take me if I'm going. I defer to your school in the process. I'm currently in that year. Yeah, I'm just finding my journey just wanting to make the biggest impact possible with whatever I'm doing.

Steve Bisson: 4:53

And the journey is always important because you know, it's interesting, we have something again, similar that I never really thought about until this month. Woman, my actual degree from my master's is actually Children and Family Therapy. Yeah. And we're both not working with children or families at this point. You're not doing. But it's been an interesting journey. I know what brought me to wanting to work with kids. But I'd like you to tell me a little more about that. How did you like how do we go in school and go, oh, I want to be in school psychology or children therapy?

Kristen Nazarro: 5:25

Yeah, sure. So I guess it started when, after I got my bachelor's degree, I took a good like four years off, because I was completely lost. I feel like a lot of people after they get a psych degree and the undergrad, they just don't know what to do with it. Because there are so many options there, you can go into a million different things with a psych degree, it's very similar to like a communications degree. So I just took time off. If I knew I had to go back, at least I thought I needed to go back at the time. So I was like, Okay, I want to take time off to really decide what I want to do. And within that time, I found myself working in a school setting and just compelled by it. I worked in an after school program, and was like, kind of like a lead teacher type role in it, which was pretty much a fancy way of saying you angle kids and you keep without, while their parents are working, and you try to do curriculum with them, but doesn't always work because it's after school, what kid wants to do curriculum. But anyways, I just found a love for, for working with kids building that relationship. But I also really knew that I wanted to work in a psych field, I always loved studying the mind and human behavior and learning how actions and thoughts are always connected. So I eventually, through my own research, I found school psychology, it's not something that a lot of people know about that there's a way to merge kind of passion for working with kids in the school setting with psychology and mental health. But yeah, I found that I was like, this seems like the perfect opportunity for me. Yeah, I went into that. And as I, every time I work with kids, I just always had this like sense. And this, the sense of fulfillment, and just like being happy and just like I'm making a difference. And that's what kind of led me to the field and staying in it.

Steve Bisson: 7:21

Well, I give you a lot of credit for going back doing the after school wrangling. I mean, teaching. And making a difference with children is certainly something that really was my passion, too. I learned a long time ago that it is not the children that I struggle with in my work. It's the parents. So therefore, I decided to walk away, I don't work with kids anymore. And yeah, if you're if you're my former client, you were a kid and you hear that, understand, kid, it wasn't about you. It's about the parents,

Kristen Nazarro: 7:50

you know, not leaving them behind.

Steve Bisson: 7:53

And not being to me, it's just hard because you know, I've had too many experiences where you work hard with a child to change, maybe their anxiety, their depression, maybe work on their trauma. And it takes like four words from the parents who just absolutely destroy it.

Kristen Nazarro: 8:06

I totally get that. Yeah, that's something why I kind of want to focus on like, if I do, again, I'm not sure where my journey is going to take me. But if I do go back to working with kids, and either in the school setting or on my own through other entrepreneurial journeys, I really want to have an emphasis on working with the parents as well, because what you said is so, so true. That's something I realized within my years of the school setting, because I'd been in school programs and have worked on them for probably were five years of my life. And I just, you just realize that you can do something within the school setting. And you can help with that behavior in the school setting. But as soon as the parents pick them up, if the kid knows that they can get away with stuff, they are not going to take anything to heart and they're not going to, but not going to internalize it. So I really would want that to I feel like that has to be the focus of any. Anytime you're working with kids or working with the parents too.

Steve Bisson: 9:02

Well, yeah, well, again, kudos to you. As if my client is listening, one of my last my last teenager turned 18 in December.

Kristen Nazarro: 9:14

And oh, wow, you remember that? Oh, yeah,

Steve Bisson: 9:16

I remember everything about my kids can't tell you his name because of HIPAA. And also, I'm crappy with names. But you know, the only reason I worked with my last 217 year olds was the parents were very supportive and were willing to implement stuff I work on with them. And if they had a difficulty with what I've said they call me I think that that to me, is you know you you have parents who are willing to do that and you have parents who get you can't set limits on my kids. Yeah, cuz you don't. And yeah, right, right. That's your that's your if I'm selling child psychology really well, but

Kristen Nazarro: 9:54

trust me, I've already thought about all of these myself. You're not telling me any new information.

Steve Bisson: 10:00

But I think it's always important to remember, you know, you got to be comfortable with what you decide. And to me the four years, you've talked about your four years off to me was, I had, I graduated in 98, went back to school, probably in late 2000. For my masters, and I worked in a supermarket for a year full time, before I found a job here in the United States where I became a mental health, not a menthol counselor, well, that's I worked in a group home showers, you know, among other things, you know, working with adults with developmental disabilities, and really doing the, you know, down and dirty work, which makes me appreciate sitting here on my butt and talking to people at this point in my career, right. So I think that it's important to have those those kinds of experiences, you talked about those experiences about being an all the respect in the world, working with kids is hard. And it's not because we're trying to be mean here. But one of the things that I would ask you is that besides being like, kind of like a teacher, did you do anything else during those four years, that was really kind of like eye opening for you?

Kristen Nazarro: 11:04

Well, a lot of what I did was very, I would say, very similar to the path that you had, because vitae after grad, not graduate school, right after my undergrad degree, I took some time, when I took initially took the time off, I moved me to a random spur of the moment decision to move to Philly with my one of my best friends at the time. And in hindsight, it probably wasn't the best decision, it was just a decision like, Oh, I'm 22 years old. Now, I don't have anything tying me down, let's move away. But then it came to where's the money coming from and I can't find a full time job. So during that time, I did a lot of serving. And I feel that's kind of been what I always go back to even now as a 29 year old, I still serve one day a week. And I feel like that's helped me so much within the field as well, just like, just the patients I've developed with people, and just helping people with kind of their situations. Even if I'm just waitressing and just taking their orders. I'm still hearing a lot of this that's going on. And they're well, so I've developed that sort of patients through each thing. And I've also done like, I feel like that's mostly what I did during that time. And also like random odd jobs, sales jobs, and then just all the school based things wasn't anything consistent whatsoever.

Steve Bisson: 12:25

Well, I think no, between waitressing and bartending, I tell people like they're like unofficial therapists.

Kristen Nazarro: 12:33

Yes. 100%.

Steve Bisson: 12:36

Okay, so you don't have the training, but you learn that. And again, psychology was always tell people your way you go to talk to your customers. It also weighs on how they will respond to you. And it really helps. And I did you find that particularly helpful for you now that you're somewhere else in your journey today?

Kristen Nazarro: 12:55

Yeah, in terms of, like waitressing and just learning how to respond to people and learning kind of how to empathize with where they're at has been hugely impactful. For me, I remember one situation in particular, at the restaurant that I'm at now, for a day a week that these customers had, like, I could tell that they were having a difficult time, but they would like the difficult customers, I get anyone that's been in the service industry in the waitress industry knows those difficult customers that you never really feel like you can get anything right from. So I just, I feel like I helped my patients very well there, I just wanted to serve them in the best way possible, and just always came back to them with a smile. And then towards the end, we got a conversation with them. And I found out that they had just come from a funeral or a week. So just like situations like that, like truly taught me you never know what someone else is dealing with. So if you can always treat someone with kindness, it can go a huge way and really make their day.

Steve Bisson: 13:55

And I think that when I can't remember if it's Socrates, or I think it's Socrates, who said, When you meet people remember, they're having a fight inside of them that you have no idea about. Yeah. And always be very careful about what you say. So the waitress and did that for you. Working in the supermarket? Definitely did that for me. Yeah. And I'll always be grateful for my years of experiences there. Not only dealing with employees and customers, but just the overall psychology behind it. Yeah, I always just give a shout out to my former boss on that, who probably is not listening because he only speaks French but nonetheless, you know, me if you're listening, thank you. Always remembered I need because he was so good to me. But yeah, so in your journey right now, now that you're 29 you get into a point where you're interested in entrepreneurship. That doesn't happen like oh my god, let's do entrepreneurship. I've worked with kids I'm gonna be I'm gonna be an entrepreneur. What brought you to that part of your journey where what brought you to that point?

Kristen Nazarro: 14:59

You Yeah, it does seem pretty weird of now that you think about it right?

Steve Bisson: 15:04

The six year olds giving me a hard time I wonder how

Kristen Nazarro: 15:07

to be a business owner now? Yeah, so I think it really started during COVID. And when we had that time off, and I wasn't pretty much doing anything I had to say, we obviously had to stay home, we couldn't go to school, we couldn't work. So I wasn't working. I was working with kids over zoom, and everything had completely shifted and changed. But I really took that time to develop myself. And I eventually went down, for lack of a better term, a ton of rabbit holes. And like, I just like I said, I there was one book that was kind of like the catalysts were my entrepreneurial journey that was called The Millionaire Fastlane by MJ DeMarco. And I think I've told you about that in our conversations and not 100%. Yeah. So yeah, that one really, it just really shaped my mindset that there is a way for that we're all really taught to kind of fit into this box that would suggest like go to college, get a career, just do the nine to five not really grow past where we think is possible, we'll all within our culture will taught that. And there's, I just, it just taught me that there's more to it. And there's a way to really elevate the impact that I would want to have on the world by doing something myself. And especially being in the school. So some something that I realized is how many limitations there are in the school system to what you're able to achieve. So, like, there's so many politics, and there's, yeah, I see you shaking your head, it's like ridiculous of how much that you're not able to do that you think you're able to do. So I just really, after a lot of like rabbit holes, really just reading as much as I could about starting a business. Getting a bunch of quizzes. Again, while I was home, just really developing myself, I developed this mindset of there is a way to maximize my impact beyond just one on one settings. And that the only way to really well and to really scale something is to do it on your own. There's only so much a school system can do for you.

Steve Bisson: 17:20

I agree wholeheartedly. Let me just say that we're listening to finding your way through therapy. I am Steve, listening to Kristin Lazaro, we are talking about her journey into entrepreneurship right now. And yes, you did. Tell me about that book. The other book that you really kind of like screwed up my brain wet in a good way, is ask powerful questions. Yes. And that's I believe it will wise I believe? Well, Elias? Yes. I had written that down, because that's a book that really had a great impact you we were talking about how be entrepreneurs and all that. But one of them mentioned that among other books that you've commented about. So yes, you've mentioned about three different books. Can't remember them all. Yeah, I told you before 46, you know, getting

Kristen Nazarro: 18:07

can't remember all the books that I've read, either. Whenever someone asked me what my favorite book is, I'm like, please, I have no idea even though I've read so many over the past two years. And what's funny is before, these past two years of like, post COVID, I call this error, I had really only bad school, and I had really only saw school as the opportunity to learn and now I see myself as more a lifelong learner, there's always something else that you can be learning no matter how professional you are, no matter how much experience you have in something.

Steve Bisson: 18:41

I think that what you've said is absolutely true. That's why I read a lot more than I used to. In fact, they have more books than I've read, so to speak, you know? And yeah, last powerful questions is a good one. My default when people asked me about the therapies, therapy books that I love, I go back to two main books that I really like. And the first one is always David Burns his book on feeling good, the new mood therapy, which brought me to this field, so I always put that. And then the Gifts of Imperfection by Brene. Brown, in a book that a lot had a lot of impact on the work that I do a lot of people with anxiety, have perfectionism issues and all that so, but I've learned to also answer the question like what type of book are you talking about? Are you talking about self help book? Are you talking about a psychology book? Are you talking about a fiction book? Are we talking about fantasy so that way, when people ask me which one's your favorite book, I try to have narrow it down. Because the Alchemist is a book that was sent to me by a friend and made a lot of impact in my work, too. So

Kristen Nazarro: 19:44

yeah, I also forgot to mention going back to how I got into school psychology and working with kids if thinking about it. Now. It was actually a book that I read in my high school Human Behavior class. It was called the boy who was faced as a dog, I believe was the name of it, and it was Just that personal that story of what can happen, what happens if a child doesn't get what they need, learning how that can, you can still change that you can still make a difference, even if someone has probably one of the most horrible human experiences. And that was like, it was like 12 case studies, I believe I've held kids like that.

Steve Bisson: 20:21

You know, and I know that for older people like me, there was a movie called Nelly. Jodie Foster did in the late 90s. That was very powerful, kind of like not, obviously was fiction, but kind of explains how we can change the humanity of people, despite how horrendous conditions from trauma and being Yes, in certain ways.

Kristen Nazarro: 20:40

Definitely, definitely.

Steve Bisson: 20:42

So the other thing that you talked about about entrepreneurship, one of the things that I say that the biggest advantage of my job, is that I do not have to deal with politics. That's why I was shaking my head because politics drive me absolutely batty. And we're not talking about Republican Democrats, Green Party libertarians here we're talking about politics within the workplace environment. Yes. How do you think that has impact you and maybe people you've worked with or talked to, and stuff like that?

Kristen Nazarro: 21:14

Good questions. So I feel like within the school system itself, because that's where my main experience comes from. There's, like I said, there's so much that you can't do and it really makes you feel like, what I'm doing is an important, and like, just base, just like who you have to report to, and kind of all the hoops that you have to go through to get something done. And then finding out that that thing is impossible. No matter how hard you try, especially in school psych, there's so many limitations to getting kids that help that they need and special education. And also in counseling, because school psychologists are kind of responsible for both and depending on the school district. So I'm just learning now talking to other therapists and school sites, or counselors within the field, there's such a shortage and school, but they're not able to really help in the way that they want to because of how little resources they have available to them. So just having all those things kind of put together to like, it really impacts what you feel like you're able to do. And then it's like, oh, what's the point of trying because if I, if I do try and just kind of get my hopes up, and then get done. So I really felt that within the school system as well with the teachers I've worked with the other school sites that I've talked to, and just that overall negative mindset of not being able to do what you come into the field to do and it leads to so much burnout.

Steve Bisson: 22:45

Yeah, burnout is really the, I think what my experience with so many people that start their own private practice, is that they go from a burnout, working in schools, working in that environment, working in a social service agency, social service industry, and just getting burned out by all the politics and the ambushes that come up with that, and you want to help so many people, but there are so many ways that get in the way for that. So I think that the politics I let's let's not forget, and I'm not going to forget and I will piss off people some of the some of the difficulties because you are, you know, maybe you have, you're transgender, or you don't identify with any particular gender, you you have, you are a woman, you are black, you are Asian, you're Hispanic. And yes, I'm focusing on a lot of things on the united states that still pissed me off. And I'll take the bullet for that for any day. Because I think that even being a man sometimes in this field can be very detrimental to you. Because yeah, it has played a factor in some of the politics I've had to deal with.

Kristen Nazarro: 23:53

Right? Yeah, I can wholeheartedly see that. And it feel could if you're not a specific, a specific person or hold true to a certain stereotype, it could really impact what you're able to do. I know in the school psych field, that it's predominantly white women like myself. So if you're not that there's, you just feel again, like the world. It's kind of like that self fulfilling prophecy where you feel like the world is out to get you you feel like you're not able, you feel like there's so many things holding you back that you're not able to do the thing and then you don't even trying to do the thing because of all these things that rightfully so you fear are holding you back.

Steve Bisson: 24:36

Right. And you know, I'm not crying for anything. You know, I am a white male in the United States and I'm an American. I have a lot of advantages that are just not written in stone, but they're kind of there. But yeah, being a man sometimes who work in this mental health field and has a pretty direct person that has played against me several times. Because I don't play political games. I don't play Yeah, be nice to that person or say nice. Yes. About that. I just say what I say. So it definitely plays a factor for I mean, I'm assuming it's the same thing for women. And I've heard so many stories, especially in schools that you know, you're not in with the principal, you're not in with the head person of whatever, then you're whatever you decide. It's like, I have no funding, but you know, Julie's really nice. And she's gonna get her funding for her. Yeah, whatever project she decided I'm not putting any anyone down. And I don't know, any Julie's per se. Yeah, just saying that there is a factor that that comes from that. So, you know, you're you're coming into all this, you're moving on, you're not entrepreneurship at this point. We didn't talk about mental health therapy yet. And we've informally talked about how we work with other people, but with our of your use of mental health therapy.

Kristen Nazarro: 25:48

Good question again. So I feel like there's so much changing when it comes to mental health therapy, like I feel like we saw a used to be primarily talk therapy. And that's kind of where the direction that most therapists took. And it's still important, don't get me wrong. But now there's so many other options like EMDR, I can't think of the other ones off the top of my head, you can probably helped me with that. But there's so much other research going on for mental health therapy that is really helpful and, and beneficial. And I think in terms of the something that I've seen, a lot of especially being on LinkedIn being online is how much more willing people are to talk about mental health therapy and talk about getting treatment, I know that there was like this thing going around of people, I'm not sure your views on this, people showing their pills for what they take for, like what their psychiatrists might prescribe to them. And just like showing that I am okay, getting mental health treatment, I'm okay, putting that out there. So I like how a lot of the views of mental health therapy are changing, I still think there's a lot that needs to be done to make it not only more acceptable online, but also more acceptable in the workplace, for those who do work, because that's a lot of people fear. Like, if I say that I'm getting mental health treatment, I'm going to lose my job with this or that and that it does happen. And there's still so much that needs to be done there, with friends and family, all of that stigma. But I think things are moving in a positive direction.

Steve Bisson: 27:23

I mean, it's I agree with you. And I think I Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing as part of it. Yeah, neurology, in general, has really opened doors for psychology and seeing what part of your brain is being kind of like turned on by XYZ, whether it's anxiety or depression or schizophrenia. And there's a lot of work and you know, medication. I love that you mentioned that because for me personally, you know, I tell people, do you need medication? I frankly, don't know. But if they're going to help you think differently, then hey, maybe that's what you're going to work on. But I also have a specific view on medication and there's certain meds you won't ever stop. But I take Wellbutrin during the winter months because of my own seasonal affective disorder. And I have no qualms saying that I'll say it to any of my clients. Now, it's obviously on a podcast, so the world will know. But I think that it's okay to talk about medications for what you need. So for me, I say, take your xyz Med, I don't want to promote anything. And so we can work on the thought process. So maybe you can get off those meds. But if you need your meds for the rest of your life, what is wrong with that no one is afraid of saying I take, you know my insulin for diabetes. So why would why would we be like, I know you're really you're taking medications for your mental health help. It's in the name health.

Kristen Nazarro: 28:42

Yeah. And mental health is just as if not more important than physical health. The mind is the biggest computer known to man. I'm another book that I read limit limitless by Jeff Beck. I'm not sure if we talked about that. But yeah, that kind of taught me more about the powers of the mind when it functions properly. And a point that you brought up is kind of that everyone needs something different. Some people may need medication, some people may be fine with just psychotherapy. So just like giving people the freedom to explore what works best for them without feeling less of a person for that exploration is huge.

Steve Bisson: 29:22

Being able to give that space, that's part of the therapists point, you know, I think that that's what we got to do. And then when clients bring in medications, I say, Look, I'm not at their I'm not a psychologist, psychiatrist, I am not a nurse practitioner. But let's explore if you think that would help you. And you're absolutely right. We need to be able to rid that stigma as you talked about. Do you feel that you know talking about stigma for me, you're right mental health, you talked about mental well being important, more important than even physical health. And to a certain extent I agree with that. It's always going to be in my messages. We need to be able to go mental get mental health treatment, even if it's once a year. Hey, Um, good. Thumbs up just like we do a physical health treatment. But what do you think the barriers continue to be in regards to stigma around mental health, even after two years into a pandemic at this point?

Kristen Nazarro: 30:14

I feel like it's a big part of it that I've seen is, yes, people talk about it like individually. But a lot of the like, think, like news doesn't talk about it. For example, like I saw one post on LinkedIn that was like, if we, I don't want to get political here. But if people would, the main cause of death wood for men under 34 years was COVID. And it'd be all over the news. But it's actually suicide, and no one talks about that. So the more that we don't talk about it, in those kind of larger atmospheres and environments, the less likely things are to change, because kind of, we need that catalyst, like we need something to pull us all together. And I think a lot of people individually are trying to do that. It's just about getting all those messages together to really make the impact that it's able to make.

Steve Bisson: 31:08

I agree 100%, and suicide, you know, there's things that we don't talk about in this world, suicide is one of them, and miscarriages for women. And yeah, you know, women go through miscarriages, and it's like, I can't remember the exact stat, but it's like one out of five, one out of four, it's pretty high. But yeah, let's keep that in a closet. Let's not talk about that either. And I think that suicide is something that I feel we throw, oh, something happens, someone committed suicide, they'll throw 14 resources at it for three days. And after three days, like, Alright, no one's suicidal anymore, right? We're gonna be good for the rest of the year. I mean, right? That's the part of suicide, it really bothers me. It's like, oh, yeah, went away. After three days. Everyone's good.

Kristen Nazarro: 31:52

Right? Yeah. And I feel like a lot with suicide. It's something that I I'm not sure how true this is. But something like, I guess a theory that people have as to why it's not talked about is because they fear other people, it will put that in other people's mind, the idea of suicide, it's like, they feel like, oh, people don't know it, people don't know exists. So once we talk about it, people are gonna know it's exists, and they're gonna, but Well, another part of that is seeing it as glorified. Because you really have to be careful with that fine line. Because if you give too much attention to one person for doing that, and someone is kind of on the edge, or it kind of in that bad mental place, they may see that as a reward of going through with something that's already in their mind. So I do definitely see that. But again, it's all about finding that balance of yes, we can talk about it. And yes, we can really, we can try to make a difference. But we can also we also have to not glorify it.

Steve Bisson: 32:50

Well, I think it's also something that, you know, I've done the work in a previous and current incarcerated incarceration, incarnation, and then incarceration too, but not personally. I was actually a suicide prevention trainer in the state of Massachusetts. And one of the things that we the first thing is like, if you're not willing to talk about it, you're already behind the eight ball. And we need to put it out there. And when my clients seem to be hesitating, and all them, like, Are you suicidal? And they kind of open up? What 95% of the time and they basically. So I think that for me, if you lift the stigma as a therapist, and as a human being and say, Are you having suicidal thoughts?

Kristen Nazarro: 33:33

Yeah, you know, since I think about it,

Steve Bisson: 33:36

I feel that again, maybe it's my own preconceived notion, maybe it's a crisis work for 15 years isn't this to me, but I feel like everyone has had a thought of suicide. You know, everyone has said, like, and I'm not saying that they acted on it, but you know, like, I wish, you know, I wouldn't wake up or the world may be better off without me or stuff like that. And if you're able to bring that up and lead people talk about it, you'd be surprised how often that saves that situation. And it's important to talk about it for me.

Kristen Nazarro: 34:06

Yeah, I can. I can 100% agree and resonate with what you just had when I I'm not sure if we talked about this? I don't think so. But when I was a teenager I've had I've definitely had some of these thoughts, especially being I was someone that was very introverted didn't really have any friends didn't really talk to many people. And I have had those thoughts of what what could be the worst of the world dynoing says without me, no one knows me anyway type of thing. So that kind of is what led me to one what I wanted to do with kids and what I continue to want to do with kids so they don't feel the same way I did. And they know and someone's always in their corner. And also what I do now with with therapists in general, just making sure that other people are able to get the mental help that they need, so they don't feel like I did when I was going when I is in like, at somewhat dark place

Steve Bisson: 35:03

or foe stuff here, you're listening to finding your way through therapy, Kristin is the guest, Steve is the host, and we're having a pretty heavy conversation about suicide, which is important to talk about, in my opinion. And thank you for sharing your personal story, it means a lot to me. Forget about this podcast thing, just as a human being to a human being means a lot to me, thank you for that. Let's maybe shift gears. I mean, it's not that we can't talk about suicide for the next hour. But maybe talk about more about entrepreneurship, because you know, one of the things that you you've been working on in the last year or so, or more than that, but at least a year is entrepreneurship. What do you think is the the mindset of entrepreneurship? What does that mean? Because I think that it's not given to everyone.

Kristen Nazarro: 35:49

Now, it's not and isn't, it's not something that we're taught, right? Where, like I said, we're taught to kind of be in this box, and really have the mindset of an employee and listening to a boss and really trying to grow, go up the corporate ladder, know, even if we're not equipment, if we're like, obviously, an agent, whatever job you may find yourself in, it's very much the same of just trying to please others. So we go to the top of that company, but not really trying to do something ourselves. So in terms of the mindset of an entrepreneur, I feel like bad is probably 90% of growing your business is really developing the ability to believe in yourself and believe in your actions. And it's not something that's developed overnight. And it's not something that have that stays the same day to day. I know this within the business that I do now. But sometimes I feel like, Oh, I'm doing great things. And a lot of people are believing in me, and I'm getting, and my message is getting out there. And then sometimes I feel like, I'm What am I doing this isn't, this isn't working, I feel like a failure. So it's, it's very much a day to day thing. But in terms of the mindset of an entrepreneur, I feel like it's just being able to believe and really be able to believe that your actions will pay off and really see them paying off as well. I do a lot of meditation visualization of myself, of myself, when I feel like I would be the most successful kind of what that would look like. And I feel like that's been hugely impactful. Journaling, like future attempts as well, just all of that has played into a part of really building my own confidence. But again, it's not something that takes a lot of consistent work. And it's not, it won't be developed overnight. No.

Steve Bisson: 37:46

I think you hit on a lot of important things. And I think that one of the things that you talked about is confidence. And I've actually haven't done it about a year now. But I used to run a class called starting your own practice and private practice for those who wanted to start. And a lot of people have succeeded. But I also saw a lot of people struggle because of their own self doubt.

Unknown: 38:10

Yeah, that's a huge one.

Steve Bisson: 38:13

You talked about journaling, meditation visualization. I think positive affirmations definitely work. Yeah. How have you integrated that stuff, even with work with other people at this point?

Kristen Nazarro: 38:25

Mindset is in such a void, because, yeah, like you can help people and you really, you can't tell people what to do be? Well, how to think because the minds know minds don't work like that. You can't tell people Oh, think like this, and then that's habitually ingrained in them. So I feel like it's just a lot of being around what's helped me is being around people that embody the mindset that I want to have. So in terms of who I connect with, on LinkedIn, who I have conversations with one on one, like the conversations, we've had other business owners that I talked to, and that I just feel bad, for lack of a better term, pick their brain. But those conversations have always been helpful for me. And that's kind of I guess, one of the reasons that as an entrepreneur, I wanted to put a pause on being in the school environment too, because I felt like the people that I wasn't found on a day to day basis were ones that were just felt very stuck. And they didn't want to grow and they didn't have the mindset of wanting to grow they had. And that kind of impacted me too. I felt I dreaded going there every day because of the people I was around. And that negative mindset so I feel like being around the right people reading the right things, surrounding yourself with just non not big positivity because I never condone that but just surrounding yourself with the type of person that you want to be.

Steve Bisson: 39:59

Yeah, Toxic positivity is probably one of my biggest pet peeves in our world that exists. So I definitely had that. I put

Kristen Nazarro: 40:07

this on a, I commented on a post on this that I forget who said it, it was someone within the psychology field that they put something out about positive fake positivity. And I put about how there's a difference between fake positivity and having a growth mindset. You can be positive when the situation calls for it. But if the situation is more negative, there's a difference between telling yourself oh, this is awesome, and telling yourself, Oh, this sucks now, but I'm able to make it better. And I'm able to grow from this experience.

Steve Bisson: 40:40

Yeah, I think that the overnight success that people are looking for in entrepreneurship, I think is very difficult. And I went to the thoughts that I explained this that whatever overnight success that you think exists, they've been doing that crap for like five years. And yeah, overnight for you. Because you didn't know about it for five years. But yeah, no such thing.

Kristen Nazarro: 41:01

Don't post and people don't put up about that.

Steve Bisson: 41:05

I think that that the struggles are real, and sometimes saying, you know, I'm having trouble getting clients or what have you telling people like, yeah, it's can be hard. What are your difficulties not going? You'll get them food, because that's absolutely bonkers. People who say that crap.

Kristen Nazarro: 41:23

And there's a way to problem solve that too. Like, if you admit that something sucks, you're able to problem solve and be like, Okay, how do I make this better for next time, or what part of this sucks, or what part of this didn't work? So maybe I can experiment with changing that to make it work next time. But if you have that big positivity, then you're not learning from it, and you're just, you're attributing it to something that doesn't exist.

Steve Bisson: 41:49

And you're also not kinda like paying attention to what you need to improve. You're just saying, pointing fingers. That sucks? Yeah, you know, no, you got to work on yourself, too. What about other challenges for entrepreneurs? What do you think you would talk about there?

Kristen Nazarro: 42:05

Yeah, everything. I tried, maybe seven days.

Steve Bisson: 42:14

We could talk offline. But I mean, like, definitely for maybe thinking about a podcast audience that has probably an hour's worth of attention span.

Kristen Nazarro: 42:25

Yeah, right. So I would say just getting probably getting started. And really making the decision and sticking with something has always been my greatest challenge. Once you walk into the world of entrepreneurship, you realize there's so many opportunities beyond what you thought was possible within the school setting, and when going through that and what you were taught. But just, there's so many things that you can take action on, it's really about prioritizing, okay, what's going to help me get to where I want to go, and really clarifying where you want to go to, like, success is such a buzzword, but it means nothing if you're not able to put a monetary one a monetary value on it. But also, if you're not able to see what success looks like to you, like for some people success can be just live not living on the streets. While some people it could be living on a yacht, and having five cars success is totally different for everyone. So what does it mean to you want to clarify that you really have to make you kind of have to backtrack and see what actions can I take now to help me get to this place in X amount of time. But that's the most challenging part for me. And also, and just like managing my time to make it the most effective that I want to be

Steve Bisson: 43:43

managing our time, I think is one of those strike the things that I talk about the most with people who are starting, because they can spend, you can spend 40 hours on just social media, you can spend 40 hours on networking, you can spend 40 hours on anything else, but you got to make, you know, what's more important to you? And how are you going to get your clientele and kind of remind people that you know, networking in a small area can be more beneficial than spending 40 hours on social media. But if you're going to be in a coaching mindset, maybe social media is your friend, maybe your website is your friend, depends on what you want to do.

Kristen Nazarro: 44:19

Yeah, and I think what's so important to realize is that what works for one person may not work for you. And that's okay. I think what social media we see, we get all this advice thrown at us because everyone wants to be providing value and sharing what they know to get more clients in their door. But you have to realize that what works for them may not work for you and your audience. So it's really not about just taking advice for at face value and just applying it without thinking about it. It's about infusing it into your audience, your business, your mindset, and what well Helping you get to the goals that you want. But that's definitely a challenge as well like kind of learning that difference.

Steve Bisson: 45:08

Sometimes it's the the buzzword of ROI, right? And yes, you know, I tell people all the time, my return of investment is actually time. So if I invest 20 minutes on something, and it gets me three clients, that's worth it. If it takes me four or five hours to barely get the attention of someone who comments once, that's not worth it to me. And hey, it's not the money of the client, but more the invent the investment, the client makes a knee and the work here they want to do with themselves. So it's always about Yeah, what are you looking for, I don't want to be a social media darling. I'd like to like to be a podcast darling, but you know, that's a work in progress.

Kristen Nazarro: 45:47

Yeah. And he made a great point to like, if you don't like it, and you don't want to do it, then don't put your time into that time is so much more valuable than the money because as an entrepreneur, your, your time is pretty much your revenue. Like if you don't, you have to learn how to prioritize it. Because no one's telling you what to do at a certain time, you need to see what's gonna help you the most and where your time is the most valuable, like something I realized early on is I, like we talked about, I literally want to talk to everyone because I love talking to people. And I love building those connections. And I like networking to learn and pick the brains of others. But then I realized, oh, a half hour call turns into an hour call, like, what's up people? And then it doesn't help. And it doesn't lead to anything positive for my business. And may eventually but it's is that I'm not saying that I was has an I was definitely has but other people? Oh, definitely not, may have not been the best use of my time.

Steve Bisson: 46:53

I don't feel that you're talking about me, because I feel like our relationship has been very symbiotic in many ways, and a good way. And certainly, hopefully, the chemistry is coming through here. Because I really feel that that's something that I've really enjoyed our time. And, yeah, sometimes maybe we could have done what we talked about in a half hour versus an hour. You know, sometimes it's good to enjoy our conversations. And certainly, you know, as we've talked about, and let's, let's let the audience in on this, she will be doing my new website, don't go to my website now and say, Oh, that's her work. That is not her work. But she will be doing my new website that will be coming out in the future. So definitely, it has been a good investment in that way. And for me, as an entrepreneur, I can't work with someone I know, someone I don't like I cannot work, I just this is not something I'm willing to do. Fame, my podcast costs me money to put it out there. But I'd rather do that than endorse a product I don't even believe in. And so I'll take that I'll take the shot any day of the week. But if I find the right combo that hey, you know, any coffee company willing to sponsor me live, please drop me a line. But ultimately, I think that entrepreneurship, you can chase the money. But at what price and not only financially, but mentally and timewise. Because I don't want a tied to I got to do 14 spots for like, this is not a joke. I am a man shaving company. I'm like, No, I'm not that. How's that therapy? I don't have a clue Who's that. And I'm not willing to invest my time on that stuff.

Kristen Nazarro: 48:33

Right. And I think you brought up a great point as well, that something that I've had a lot of trouble with is, and I feel like a lot of your listeners may too that are going into private practice learning how to say no to opportunities that don't serve you. And because as helpers we want sometimes want to be able to offer ourselves to everyone. And without thinking about whether it's a good one business opportunity are good use was second good use of our time. So just learning that it's not a bad thing to turn down opportunities if they don't serve you or your time or what you're trying to do the best. And it does take time to really look like I've preached this so much. And still I have trouble saying no, a lot of the times too. So it does. It takes time to really develop that skill. But saying no isn't a bad thing. It just opens up more opportunities for better yeses that serve you the best to happen.

Steve Bisson: 49:33

I think that the other thing that I find with therapists and you can agree or disagree with me, there's this poverty mindset that comes flat and comes. If you worked in a social service field, you've worked in a school setting, the money is limited. We want to do what we love. We don't I don't think anyone becomes a therapist or social worker and say, Gee, I'm going to be a millionaire. But I think that we have that poverty mindset that comes FROM ALL we don't have any money or fundings down, or what have you, that you sometimes carry into your entrepreneurship?

Kristen Nazarro: 50:07

Yeah, I 100% agree with that. It's something that I've seen a lot with the therapists that I work with that are just coming into their own private practice from agency work, like you really develop this mindset of having to really Penny pinch, because you're not sometimes not able to get the funding or you're not receiving the pay that you deserve. Like I talked to one person that's in agency work what that is, I think she's doing her clinical hours now. And the paid difference between like that, and like, having your own practice is absolutely insane to me. And, but it really teaches you that mindset of, okay, am I gonna have enough money and I need to Penny pinch, it's, you don't think about investment, you think you don't think about what's going to be the best investment way you think about saving as much as you can. And then that really comes with you when you go into your own business. And then you have to learn how to make proper investments. And a lot of times that is they are hefty. And sometimes they're sometimes those that come into play CO into their own private practice, aren't willing to do that out the gate, and that can be really harmful down the line.

Steve Bisson: 51:25

I agree wholeheartedly and remembering that your value of your self needs to be superior to everything else. Yeah, and I can't believe it's been almost an hour already.

Kristen Nazarro: 51:36

Well, a time flies when you're having fun. I was

Steve Bisson: 51:39

gonna say, I've always enjoyed our conversations, this is amazing. I continue enjoying and yes, when my new website will be up, you obviously will be the one doing it for me. And that's not my that's part of a small plug that I'm doing for you. But maybe, maybe you can do your own plug instead of me saying,

Kristen Nazarro: 51:58

I will try my best. So my business is my drive digital, I help therapists, anyone in the mental health industry that really wants to elevate the impact through their practice and what they're doing, create websites do a little bit of digital marketing through SEO better known as the Google thing. So

Steve Bisson: 52:21

search engine optimization, yes.

Kristen Nazarro: 52:24

help getting you to the top of Google so more people can see what you're able to do and connect with a therapist that really has values that are true to them. And that's kind of what I want my business to focus on, really bringing your unique value to light. So hopefully, I'm able to do that. So Steve, and you can find me at my Dr. digital.com.

Steve Bisson: 52:48

I will make sure that I put that in the show notes. And people can go right there to the website. I can't tell you how much I had a good time, Kristen, I this has been amazing. I looked at the time and I went holy crap it now so I in a good way from the bottom of my heart. Thank you. I hope people go see your website. I hope that people enjoy my website that you're going to create. But I also really appreciate the honesty of your journey, and hope that you continue including me in your journey in the future, whatever that takes you because I really enjoyed our relationship.

Kristen Nazarro: 53:23

Yes, thank you. Same here.

Steve Bisson: 53:26

And thank you again. Yes. Well, this concludes episode 35 of finding your way through therapy. Kristin Lazaro, thank you so much for the interview. I've really enjoyed our conversations throughout the last few months. And this was just, you know, the topper and talking about your own self, your entrepreneurship, you're taking 40 years off your history and how you perceive mental health just all so helpful. And one of the things that she mentioned after the interview, she said, I forgot to mention something important I want to put this in the conclusion is that she stated to me she she didn't tell me this until right now, I almost didn't call you on the first time she said that, you know, she had to get over some of her fears and negative self talk and decided to contact me and you know, we really bloomed a great relationship. So very happy that she called me and that we continue this relationship. And I hope you enjoyed the interview. Episode 36 is a personal conversation I wanted to have with my audience in regards to why therapists are so exhausted. I think there's a lot of stuff going on that people have realized in their own life. But being a therapist, during a pandemic, as well as other things that are happening during that time has been very difficult on us. So I do hope you tune in for my next episode. Please like, subscribe or follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful, and as a reminder, this podcast is for information, educational, and entertainment purposes. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor or therapist for consultation.