E.47 The Pandemic And It's Effect On Social Interactions, Relationships, And Every Day Life With Jenn Nakhai, LICSW

This is the first part of a 2 episode interview with Jenn Nakhai. Jenn discusses her experience in the pandemic, as well as her observations as to how it has effected others, as well as her business. Jenn also discusses the impact of these changes and how it has created lots of emotional and mental health issues. We also discuss the future of therapy, as well as how to adapt.

Jenn has over 10 years of experience in the nonprofit sector, fulfilling roles from clinical staff to management, program development & program evaluation, as well as holding a role in the North Shore Latino Business Association’s Board of Directors and in the National Association for Social Worker’s (NASW) Board of Directors – MA chapter.  Jenn has nurtured her clinical practice with Spanish speaking populations and now practices independently in Massachusetts. As a clinician, she is committed to diversity, evidence based practice, and encouraging organizations to invest in their workforce to create healthy organizational cultures. Jenn values integrity, critical thinking, and a bio-psycho-social view of integrated patient care.

You can find her counseling website here .

You can find her Instagram here and here .

Transcript

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Steve Bisson: 0:01

Hi and welcome to finding your way through therapy. I am your host, Steve Bisson. I'm an author and mental health counselor. Are you curious about therapy? Do you feel there is a lot of mystery about there? Do you wonder what your therapist is doing and why? The goal of this podcast is to make therapy and psychology accessible to all by using real language and straight to the point discussions. This podcast wants to remind you to take care of your mental health, just like you would your physical health. therapy should not be intimidating. It should be a great way to better help. I will demystify what happens in counseling, discuss topics related to mental health and discussions you can have what your thoughts, I also want to introduce psychology in everyday life. As I feel most of our lives are enmeshed in psychology. I want to introduce the subtle and not so subtle ways psychology plays a factor in our lives. It will be my own mix of thoughts as well as special guests. So join me on this discovery of therapy and psychology. Hi, and welcome to episode 47 of finding your way through therapy. I am Stevie. So if you haven't listened to Episode 46, yet, I urge you to do so. Gina Moffa is a great guest we had a great conversation about a slew of different subjects, including therapy, mental health and trauma and things of that nature. So I hope you go back and listen to it. But for Episode 47, we are going to talk to Jen Nakhai, Jen is a colleague of mine, she is the founder of eon counseling in Massachusetts. And she has been someone I met through another agency I worked for for a few years. And we stayed in touch. And we really got much more in touch in the last few months. And we thought that we would have not only one episode, but two episodes, because there's so many things to talk about, especially around the COVID how it affects people how it affects us mentally and how we've changed how we think because of the pandemic. So here's the interview. Well, hi everyone, and welcome to finding your way through therapy. This is a first on so many levels, this is going to be the first one that I'm actually gonna put on YouTube, you guys can go and see it if you want to number one. Number two, it's up, maybe you shouldn't set up first, this is the last time I'm going to use this computer to do this interview. I'm going to be getting some new equipment for my next season. So that's really amazing. And I can't tell you how excited I am to be here with Jen. Jen Nakhai is someone that it's interesting because she remembers me from an agency I worked for online a couple years ago. And she said how helpful I was. And maybe because of how the agency or the company worked. Like, I know, I had to be supportive to other people. But I didn't realize that we met there. And we reconnected about maybe the we were connected on Instagram, but we were really reconnected about a year ago or so. And I can't tell you how much we've connected so much on different levels. She's an amazing woman. And she's gonna talk about herself, but we're really going to concentrate on talking about the effects of COVID and pandemic and isolation and what it's done to our community. And she is so amazing. I already know she's gonna be amazing. It's gonna be a two part podcast, so no pressure Jen, Jen Naka, welcome to finding your way through therapy.

Jenn Nakhai: 3:21

Thank you, Steve. Hi. Thank you for having me.

Steve Bisson: 3:25

I met everyone I say. And as I told you right before we got on online, I did not that I don't want to be connected with everyone. But in our particular case, I'm so happy and I hope we never lose that connection. Because I really enjoyed it. I got your back. Don't worry. You're good. I know you. We've met for coffee a couple of times. We've talked a few other times, but maybe my audience doesn't know who you are. So maybe you can introduce yourself.

Jenn Nakhai: 3:51

All right, well, I am a therapist. I'm an LCSW. To be specific. I practice in Massachusetts. And I'm the owner or founder of AEON counseling and consulting. And we provide psychotherapy to individuals, couples and families and kids. And so here we go. And I've been doing a podcast for a while. And then we noticed that we were each other doing podcasts and then we want to do podcasts together. So it makes sense. And thank you for being my teacher in the beginning of when we learned how to do teletherapy before it was necessary. Yep. Remember, remember that time?

Steve Bisson: 4:29

Yeah. That's called Ancient times for some people. And I remember the conversations I had seven, eight years ago when people would tell me teletherapy won't work. It's not It's this. It's that and people would even say that I'm I'm ethical and call me names. And that's not even a joke. And a couple years ago, I went How are you like me now?

Jenn Nakhai: 4:50

Oh, I mean, you have to get canceled, at least by Wednesday, every week. Or else what are you even doing? You know, that's fine.

Steve Bisson: 4:59

So And that's why I think we get along fine because I think that me and you pissing off people is not exactly something that bothers us, really. So,

Jenn Nakhai: 5:08

God forbid, what are you gonna do? Hey, feedback is the breakfast of champions. A therapist knows how to give feedback, unfortunately. Or maybe fortunately for others, I'm not sure. Either way, it's gonna be a good time. Let's talk about the Pandy. though.

Steve Bisson: 5:28

Let's talk about the bad Dan,

Jenn Nakhai: 5:29

how are you? How are you doing?

Steve Bisson: 5:31

I am doing okay, and doing better than I was about a month ago. And we're recording this in April, but it'll be out sometime the beginning of eighth of May. So there's a little delay, but there's not that much of a delay. I took a week off about a month ago, because I just had it. And what I mean by that is I was sitting in sessions with clients, and not that you want to quantify What's worse, or what's better, but things that used to not bother me, bothered me. And, you know, I decided I needed to take care of myself, which was the first time probably since the pandemic started, it was hard for me to admit that I need the help, it was hard for me to say that I'm a human. And I'm allowed to have this thought because you know, I'm a therapist, and people do count on me. And it's been better since I'm putting some changes in my life. Some of the changes, I don't want to talk quite right now on on a mic and on a video quite yet. But you may know a couple Gen, but most people don't know yet. They're coming. But I need to change things so that I can connect with people instead of just kind of being a therapy robot. And so I'm doing much better, making some changes in my life. Because the weight of being there for people was so devastating in the sense that I wanted to be there for others, but I was just not there for myself and my family, and everything else. So I've changed a lot of my life in the last few weeks. And hopefully it'll continue that way. But thank you for asking.

Jenn Nakhai: 7:08

I mean, we have to ask at this point, because I feel like the last two, three years have been so intense for everyone that is just like, if it's not an absolutely necessary conversation that needs to happen. And like if we're connecting now, after all this has happened. And that means that you matter more as a connection to me personally. Just because, you know, now it's a matter of life or death, to see people and to connect with people becomes a situation of like, you know, are people good enough for this? This is a person who's gonna put me in danger, like there's risks and, and having friends now, that's social distancing, I guess, in the long run?

Steve Bisson: 7:55

Well, you know, I'll reciprocate the question to you, how are you doing?

Jenn Nakhai: 8:00

I'm doing good. I'm doing better than last week. And before that, mainly because I've been able to have a lot of communication, and not been isolated. my support team was there for me, that has been there this whole time. And I think I was able to talk things through people, there was like clear boundaries, caring set, amen. And those are respected and valued, you know that it makes you feel valuable. So feeling good. rearranging my living situation, moved in with my partner is different. Totally different. Yeah, face. Family means something different support means something different, especially after the pandemic, so, and I started the pandemic, like solo, just me and the dog. So now it's different. And it's harder, but the load is easier to bear because there's more people. Right? For me. I also know during the pandemic, a lot of people were overloaded with people at the same time, and that put them not just at risk, but mentally at risk.

Steve Bisson: 9:21

Well, I think that that's what, first of all, you contacted me when you were having some trouble, and thank you for that. I like to be part of your support system. So I'll forget about that. But I think that's, you know, just processing our feelings when we're me and the dog or I had my two cats. I had my two kids, but it's not exactly where I'm going to sit with my kids and say, Let's process our emotions for the last two years. I think that people have really struggled with that. Did you find that that happened with you? Or do you feel like people were kind of like open to that or were you like, me, I won't project anything. I'll say like me. I can handle this. I have this. I can handle this. I have this, even though I had my own struggles.

Jenn Nakhai: 10:03

No, no, Steve, I definitely had four mental breakdowns before the 90 days. Okay, you could quantify like you can, you can see a progression of what happened. As as things kept breaking down. It's society. But then that got better. Because then I had to reprioritize the support team, really take inventory, who matters? Who is going to always matter who is going to always be there? Who do I always want to be there for who is in a position of being way younger than the rest of us kind of knowing how to navigate this who needs actually guidance, right, in the same way that I had it when I was, you know, 19 to 21. awkward age where if you're not pivoting, pivoting, pivoting, until you find something quickly, then it's a lot of lost time in between. There's a lot of lost time right now, in learning in intimacy and interacting, right? We've actually regressed in how we interact, we move backwards. Well, I

Steve Bisson: 11:13

think the regression is, for lack of better word normal, I don't know if that's the right word, because we were pretty much isolated for a whole year. And people like I feel like unchecked thoughts occurred. You know, when you go to the office, and you say something like, though, whatever you want to call it, we'll call it a little crazy. So I'm gonna go, Hey, Steve, how about you chill a little bit? Well, I was alone, I was at home and all my mom, my thoughts were unchecked. I was on my own stuff. And I just went away and ran it, did you find that that's probably part of it, or at least part of what even is going on to this day after the pandemic, because I don't think people know how to interact with individuals anymore.

Jenn Nakhai: 11:55

I never thought about it like that, actually, because I tried to stay as connected as I could, through social media, had regular zoom parties, if you will, as much as I possibly could attended F group fitness classes online, even that included meditations that helped me feel very, very connected to the greater cause and what we're trying to achieve here together. But I mean, I think we were terrible before. And then if you don't use it, you lose it. Yes. And so that may have happened to us. So all of us. And I know that it's made my communication more honest, maybe even to the point of being even more aggressive.

Steve Bisson: 12:46

And that's what I kind of noticed with a lot of people, it's gotten, like a lot more aggressive. And I think that some of us are maybe tired, some of us are not. But I think that when I think about unchecked thoughts, and what the pandemic has brought us is, if someone discarded us online, when because we're not interacting face to face, well, we can cancel them, we can hang up on them. Now you go back into community, you can't just go and hurt people, although I'm looking at what's happening this spring, and it's kind of happening. But that's part of the uncheck thoughts that I think we may have missed.

Jenn Nakhai: 13:23

You know, it is possible now that I think now in remembering the trauma, yes, if you see that part is fragmented already. And my ADHD is on the the highest levels. Since the pandemic, I have been able to focus in the same way. I have more creative thoughts. Sure, but not the same, like productivity focus. Not that things have to be about productivity at the end of the day. For the ADHD is everywhere. Okay, I am super, I feel very, I don't know if the word is feeling very fragmented, but I'm thinking in a very fragmented way. I know it's harder to keep certain appointments, to remember certain dates of certain things that I have to do. And as always, with trauma, even if it's like soft, passive trauma, like no, you're not in the midst of the middle of the bombing of the war. But we're in the same globe as all these wars that are happening. So it's just like, yeah, there's trauma going on collectively to worse, but I know that in my body anger, certainly built up and that's when my acupuncturist had recommended I try boxing actually, she said something about storing tension in your shoulders. And then I balked so hard that I broke my shoulder. Oops, oops. But we're back now, thanks to the great people, the physical therapistswere back.

Steve Bisson: 14:49

That's good.

Jenn Nakhai: 14:49

But it was part of that aggression building up at least what I noticed in my body that changed a lot during the pandemic included movement and getting an rushing out. Where's all this anger coming from? I don't know.

Steve Bisson: 15:04

That's an interesting question, though. thing that, that when we think about emotions, it's like anger comes from fear sometimes. And I think that the fear plays a huge factor, I could be wrong. That's just my own meandering thoughts. And since it's my podcast, I do whatever the hell I won. But, you know, I think that one of the things that we underestimated through the pandemic is the fear part is terrifying. Well, yeah. And that's what I think we forgot. Because we're going to my, kind of, like, learning things during the pandemic is that we need to acknowledge fear more often. Because that's what leads to aggression, anger, sadness, disgust, and judgment. And not being able to acknowledge the fear, we go to the default what's comfortable, you know, if I can say fuck you, to you, that's a lot easier than saying, you know, lead gen. I'm a little fearful right now. And I don't know what to do. And for me, when you say anger, I hear fear, not from you, but just a general stance from people.

Jenn Nakhai: 16:03

Advanced Therapy. I owe you $300. Thank you. Oh, my goodness. Yo, that was really that was good. Oh, my goodness, whoa.

Steve Bisson: 16:15

Don't fall on your chair. That's the first video I don't can't have my guest fall.

Jenn Nakhai: 16:19

Anyway, yeah, it was definitely a lot of fear. And I know that one of the main points that we wanted to touch upon, is that all or nothing, us versus them mentality. And that, yeah, there is very much based in fear, you know, giving up control being controlled by who what, when do we even know at this point? Yeah, portrayals stuff like that.

Steve Bisson: 16:46

Right? And do you perceive that you lost control during the pandemic? Do you feel that you had more control over yourself? A little bit of both? But did you see it now? Because I think that that led to a lot of us versus them? stuff?

Jenn Nakhai: 17:01

Oh, question. I'm not sure.

Steve Bisson: 17:05

That's why they pay me the big bucks.

Jenn Nakhai: 17:06

Yes, this is you're gonna have to send me an invoice. I'm not sure.

Steve Bisson: 17:14

But no, I think about it a little bit, I just want to say we're listening to finding your way to therapy. I'm Adyen. My name is Steve. And I think that it's like something that a lot of people are feeling in HR, as much as you feel that I'm kinda like, going to invoice you after this. I also think that it's a good discussion to have, because there's a lot of this stuff that happened. I include myself, by the way, and what I just said, you know, and I think that is that the controller the loss of control that played a factor, I don't know,

Jenn Nakhai: 17:41

because I feel like I had more control over certain things. Especially at work. And yeah, wave wore a like, emotional dysregulation. Yeah, way. So it was just like, we'll be very restricted over here and super disciplined. And then on the back end, you know, at home, it's a different story. But then I found balance, through working on my body a lot. It was the only way of connecting, you know, the spirit to the body. It was like, Alright, I know we do this. Now we're not you know, is the world ending or not? What's going on?

Steve Bisson: 18:23

Right? And how do we connect our spirit in our body? Because I certainly am a mind body spirit type of person, I believe in that firmly. But how do we do it when we're so dysregulated?

Jenn Nakhai: 18:36

Boy, some of the yoga principles talk about breath being that connection, essentially, new when you kind of take the time to breathe into a movement. That's why you were able to go further, you can focus better, I can lift more depending on my breath, literally in actual fitness. I'm not even kidding. I've been deadlifting this week. So this is what I'm thinking about. Even the practical purposes behind strength training, for example, being able to carry a person to safety or being or having to run a certain amount of space for your safety, stuff like that. I mean, I've definitely entered Reptilian Brain Zone during the pandemic and hopefully did it responsibly. Hopefully it didn't hurt anyone in the process. Hopefully, I mean, I I feel like I've stayed pretty safe. pretty regularly isolated, if not here in my in my hometown. Like I've been traveling just home. And home is Puerto Rico.

Steve Bisson: 19:43

case people don't know. That's right. That's right as Montreal is my home, but we all have different places we call home.

Jenn Nakhai: 19:51

Have you been home since the Pandy.

Steve Bisson: 19:54

I was there for my uncle passed away last October and I was there for that And then I went up for Christmas haven't had a chance to go back since but part of my spiritual collapse, for lack of a better word again, if you're listening to this for preciousness of words, you've got the wrong podcast, go listen to someone who really thinks that's important. But my collapse had a lot to do with being away, my uncle passed away, had family members with sickness, and currently have a friend of mine who's going through his own issues, you know, the big C, and kinda like being Puerto Rico several, like, it's like 891 1000 miles away. I'm like, 300 miles away from Montreal, yet there was this imaginary line we created as humans that I couldn't cross because you know, they wouldn't let people into Canada because COVID. So sometimes that imaginary line felt extremely heavy for me. And I'm an only child, my dad passed away about six years ago. So you're not there for your mom, you're not there for your family and not there for your friends. Then you kind of like panic, because I love it here. Don't get me wrong and became an American citizen last year, very happy to be here. But as I joke around is, this is still my second home. It's a home, but it's my second home. And losing that connection, that ability to go there. Just get in the car and be there in six hours is my five if you drive like I do. But yeah, no, I'm just confessing

Jenn Nakhai: 21:36

driving. Steve. Why? If you get

Steve Bisson: 21:39

pulled over? I'm sorry. I'm new to this country. Mr. Officer. Wow.

Jenn Nakhai: 21:45

Did you hear that gene? In the offense over there? No. Matter security? Gene, take notes, FBI.

Steve Bisson: 21:58

Don't worry. I think I've said it to many people, including people in law enforcement, knowing most people laugh, so it's kind of good. But yeah, no, I think that that was something that was really hard for me. And that's the stuff that I think people felt that disconnect too. And I'm not sometimes the border. Sometimes it's your house and talking to someone this week, they were saying that their neighbors have literally not left the house still, like we're two plus years removed.

Jenn Nakhai: 22:27

And then there were the people who are actually agoraphobic before the pandemic. And now it's worse. I know, I've definitely. I mean, I always like being home. We honestly I always like being home, in general. But this definitely made it made it worse and ruined. As many friendships and relationships as I could have never thought that this could touch. But I definitely lost respect for a lot of people. In what way, and just seeing kind of like the way that they went about not believing what was going on, not seeing how other people were being affected how people were dying. And just kind of like dismissing the whole problem. Like it's fear mongering. And that's it funny that we're talking about fear mongering and anger coming from fear. Just say, just, hey, listen, I missed some you know who I'm talking about?

Steve Bisson: 23:29

Well, I know who you're talking to. I don't know if I miss him. But maybe

Jenn Nakhai: 23:34

I'm addicted to the chaos and the fear.

Steve Bisson: 23:37

Low. Wow, no, I'm definitely sending you a bill for that.

Jenn Nakhai: 23:41

Wow. Maybe it's possible. Either way, I thrive in it.

Steve Bisson: 23:50

Right. But you know, like people, people who don't know you're, you know, we've we've talked, obviously, but you know, you've worked in the jail. And your counseling services also helped individuals get the legal services they need also, which is very much something that was difficult to get prior to a pandemic. It was extremely hard during a pandemic, and things haven't gotten easier. And so it's a little bit of what we talked about, I think off air, but when we first got on today, it's hard to understand when we've had our own difficulties, I'm not dismissing anyone's difficulties. But if you don't know where you're going to live, if you don't know if you're going to be able to stay in a country and you go might go end up going back to a place where you're gonna have to literally chop your head off, not the expression, literally do it. And you're telling me that you can't and you can't

Jenn Nakhai: 24:40

get your milk. They got chopped slowly in arms.

Steve Bisson: 24:44

And I think that that's the stuff that I loved working in a jail I loved. I don't know if I like the doors closing behind me. But I liked part of that. And I certainly liked working in a crisis team for several years and I love working with individuals coming out like home was and stuff like that, whether it's from jail or they lost their housing or what have you. And I love that chaos. But part of me and maybe, maybe the pandemic has brought me to like, maybe chaos. Isn't that great?

Jenn Nakhai: 25:15

Right get a little tired. They're a little fatigued.

Steve Bisson: 25:19

You know, the compassion fatigue is one thing. I think fatigue period is a whole different ballgame.

Jenn Nakhai: 25:25

Yeah. Oh, I mean, yeah, definitely. During the pandemic, I had to rest a lot. I had to learn what was better for me. And how much coffee even if you're not even going to be that active that day, you can have before you start feeling the jitters. I mean, everything, everything was off balance. But then suddenly, I found balance through then focusing on food, right? Because then food can counteract all that and not to get into fitness and nutrition. It just I had time for fitness and nutrition during the pandemic. I never had that time before. Right. And then it's been a struggle to keep up with it afterwards as amazing establishments like goodnight, fatty. Right next to me. Amazing place which, by the way, if you haven't been there only open on the weekends. That good.

Steve Bisson: 26:17

So where's that I'm the North Shore of Boston, Massachusetts. Salem, mass, Salem mass.

Jenn Nakhai: 26:24

Amazing. Remember, this

Steve Bisson: 26:26

is an international podcast, I gotta give all that information.

Jenn Nakhai: 26:30

Salem, Massachusetts, and the North Shore mass, right off Route one. That's something like that.

Steve Bisson: 26:38

But those businesses the hard part, too, is that during the pandemic, some of them were shut down. Some of them justifiably so. Some of them not, so justifiably so. And they struggled with that. And the, I've worked with a lot of business owners too. And the financial burden and the stress was like, wow, luckily, or unluckily, depending on how you perceive it. Our job, we didn't have lack of clients wanting to do therapy. In fact, we're in crisis since then we were in crisis. Before that most people didn't know now we're in a real crisis of having a shortage of counselors, social workers, and people that treat people from mental health stuff. But I think that the other parts of the code, the pandemic, and what occurred is like a lot of financial stressors. I mean, how many businesses had to close because of

Jenn Nakhai: 27:31

that? Yeah, that was really sad to see. But also, it was one of those make it or break its moments, at least in my business, I had to pivot in a way where we need a patient portal where people can sign paperwork and not have to come here or have to mail it in. And a just, if a mom and pop shop was not able to fill out a lot of paperwork for financial support in the moment, or had their QuickBooks in order in the event that they wanted to move forward with applications for properties, for new properties, for new rentals, even you're not getting in anywhere, if you're if everything was not absolutely up to date with your taxes even. And they definitely kept up with that during the pandemic Lovato. She, yes, definitely kept up with that one. And so everyone was expected to keep up as well. And I saw a lot of people who maybe had a business and had a vision, but it was not sustainable from the administrative side, and they lost it, lost their business lost their mental health, because of it lost their legacy that they want to leave for their family, right. And then we have actual loss. The people that we lost in the process,

Steve Bisson: 28:54

which really impacted so many people, because that was part of the anger that I had sometimes with individuals that told me Well, that's not real. Right? You know, I've worked with people in the hospital slash morgue, in my job. My so like three refrigerated trucks with bodies just piling up that's just made up story storyline, just to make they make their point. They're just leaving in there. So for me, a lot of anger came from that because people didn't get that. Not only do you lose your loved one, you don't see your loved one before they pass away. Because you're not allowed in the hospital. And when they die, you can't even have proper whatever people do serve services, memorials, coming homes or what have you, because you can't have gatherings. So it's not only the loss of that individual, but that loss of the whole grief mourning process that people couldn't possibly do because we were in a pandemic.

Jenn Nakhai: 30:00

I heard this your point about the fear earlier is making, it's actually it's sinking in now. You're in the North Shore waters.

Steve Bisson: 30:10

I am in central mass. So I get it.

Jenn Nakhai: 30:13

Because I feel like a lot of my anger that came out during the pandemic was specifically about this, like, I don't want to lose you. I'm scared to literally lose you. Maybe I don't know you that, well, maybe we don't have to be ultra friends. But I'm scared to lose you as another person as life as a human being. That's all we have. Right? A lot of it was super dismissed, which made me angry. I was told that I was lying that I'm making up medical information. And yet, my first responders or my friends, working in emergency rooms in areas like Florida, are telling me how many other co workers are dying of COVID. Right? And he was like, well, then I am now definitely going to stay home. Now. I'm extra angry. pent up energy. Everyone's like, let's go to the streets and protest. And I'm like, this might not be the best moment. Right? Have all the great times we've had to do that.

Steve Bisson: 31:16

And the stuff that got people angry too, is that they didn't have all the information so they didn't know what to do. So when we you know that two week lockdown that was going to solve everything really changed. And a lot of people have said to me see, they didn't know what they were doing. Like, Oh, no. Have you ever heard of COVID-19? Whatever the initials are after that, until it occurred? No, well, then they don't either. So how the hell were they supposed to know?

Jenn Nakhai: 31:43

I ya know, I love how people have come up maybe like criticizing the medical industry. How come? They can't just, you know, like, fix the virus because we're gonna have the flu, I'm gonna get exactly we have had many fluids, and we continue to have fluids and they get stronger as we go, right? And then they talk about like, well, they made mistakes, and they intubated people in the beginning. Aha, right. It's a new virus. We are learning through trial and error, how to treat it. Now. We tried something, it definitely didn't work. Oops, right. A bunch of my friends died in that round. Right. And that and that's when I was just like, I don't know what else to do. I don't know what else to do.

Steve Bisson: 32:27

I remember connecting with you, because we connected on several levels. But at one point you had sent on I think it was on your Instagram account, a good friend of yours who worked, I think the emergency room of the hospital who had passed away and didn't know the guy. And but the impact it had on you definitely, like I felt that. And that's why when I hear about well, we don't know Well, yeah, people didn't know period. That's not because they weren't trying they just didn't know. And this real loss was someone you know, that was close to you that you love and maybe you haven't talked to a while but you still love them. And you're not able to even process that thought because other people were like, ah, you know, they're making that up. So it really turns to anger at that point.

Jenn Nakhai: 33:14

With the government with other people with neighbors face Facebook.

Steve Bisson: 33:21

Facebook was a whole different ballgame.

Jenn Nakhai: 33:24

Name a few places random places.

Steve Bisson: 33:27

Facebook wars and Twitter wars and

Jenn Nakhai: 33:30

like a real

Steve Bisson: 33:34

but that's what I think you know, we talk about so much anger and fear is that if someone brought up a point of view that was different because of our own fears, we turned either to anger or buying into it 100% You know, I can't remember. I can't remember exactly what the first few weeks someone had put on Instagram. If you gargle with saltwater, they'll help you not get COVID or it's going to help get rid of your COVID and I'm like oh my bloody hell are we making shit up at this point?

Jenn Nakhai: 34:05

Oh a lot a lot of fake healers out there particularly in the city of Lynn big shout out when mass a lot of people talking about oh, I got these vitamins that are gonna that are that I've healed COVID Oh, really? You healed it but also saying things like women not drinking the right pH water is going to give them a yeast infection this was like our Do you have a license and then it turns out they don't for anything so it was just like oh, okay, no wonder we're making whatever claims we want to make at this point. You care COVID And everything amazing and yet Lynn impacted by COVID Pretty disproportionate rate, mainly people of color dying. Cool. Thank you for doing that this service,

Steve Bisson: 34:58

right i mean On the next episode, we'll definitely talk about substance use during COVID. And how that affected it. It was always I'll go back to even 2006 2005 2007 When people of color, and I don't want to make it too much of a politics, but just truths. People of color were dying of heroin overdose is a very high rates until it hits the Caucasian population. It wasn't a crisis. Right. And to this day, some people still think that it's not a problem. And it's, if I would argue that we haven't had a problem with substances, particularly fentanyl, or some sort of opioid derivative hasn't been this bad in 10 years, and it just got worse with COVID. But most people will tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about. So we'll get to that next episode for sure.

Jenn Nakhai: 35:52

Yeah, these overdoses because they because we know that mental health emergency that you talked about that was already happening before the pandemic, just the amount of accidental overdoses.

Steve Bisson: 36:04

Right, we'll definitely get to that. I got a call yesterday from an individual saying, you're highly recommended by John Doe. And I'm like, I'm at 150% capacity, I just don't have the capacity, it takes someone more because I think that that 151 or whatever percent, and I would make, it probably cracked me. And it was the first there was the first time I kind of said that, and the person says, I fully understand. And it was such a relief that he understood. And I was able to give him like I gave him like four or five phone numbers. And he's like, when people say no, they don't offer phone numbers. And I'm like, well, that's weird to me. Because I didn't have any openings. But I know people who might, it's the least I can do as a therapist, but I think, you know, therapists were also burnt out. And the substance abuse crisis that we currently have, is so misunderstood. And definitely I want to try to keep that for our next episode. Let's get back to, you know, talking a little more about the other weight of the COVID to this day. And I think that, you know, we're gonna have a very heavy summer, in my opinion, making

Jenn Nakhai: 37:14

fatty joke right now. Well, about well getting heavier during COVID, because they sat at home. And

Steve Bisson: 37:20

we can talk about that I was just talking about how the violence escalated. And as the tic of escalation of violence has been very predominant in big cities, across the United States. You look at even mass shootings, you look at Chicago, you look at Seattle, you look at our own Boston,

Jenn Nakhai: 37:40

New York, something happened in New York last week.

Steve Bisson: 37:43

So I think that what what I've found, too, is that when we were going to see after this, we're not post pandemic quite yet, we're still at the tail end of it. I think that people have not had the ability to manage their emotions. And I think that that's a lot of what is going on right now. My opinion.

Jenn Nakhai: 38:00

I mean, if your parents didn't teach you originally, how did you learn?

Steve Bisson: 38:05

Or if you were so isolated, that you had only your own thoughts and your own paranoia, for lack of a better word, not to diagnose anyone, just we get paranoid, we get fearful. So we get paranoid about XYZ. Do we carry that now that there's more people on the street that you can, quote, leave your house? I think that that's going to play humongous factor throughout the summer in, I say, big cities, but I'm sure that, you know, I can't think of a small city, I'll go with shout out to where I will live for a short while Morrisville of Vermont, probably have the same thing, even though it's a rural area. I don't know if you agree or not. But I just feel like it's just escalated because people have been sitting with their own thoughts, and they're just going to make it's going to be us versus them kicking in again.

Jenn Nakhai: 38:50

A you know, because I've visited a couple rural areas. For example, in Maine, I have noticed, way more aggression in places where normally people are very friendly, and it's like vacation land. And it's become a lot more racial than usual. Like even in a very overt way. Even as you're driving, seeing crazy flags on people's cars. I mean, the last two years of campaigns are politically also part of the trauma. Lest we forget what kind of election we just went through. Right. What was that?

Steve Bisson: 39:33

was fixed, first of all.

Jenn Nakhai: 39:36

What? Well, I don't know at this point. Trump almost won.

Steve Bisson: 39:41

Right? Well, I think that that's but that's also kind of like the problem with the what I call a gang mentality. I we haven't had anyone to check us on those thoughts and all that. You know, I have those. I have people like come to my office and I'll talk about politics. I'll talk about religion. I'll talk about a book shouldn't talk about anything anyone wants to talk about. And one of the things that I've kind of like used as a platform in that particular setting is that we may not agree exactly on things. That doesn't mean you're a bad person or I'm a bad person. It just means we disagree. I think that with a lot of the particularly since the pandemic, but what's happened before that it's become well, if you don't agree with me, you're against me. And I don't know when we turned into the bloods versus the Crips in general, but that's kind of what it is nowadays. It is nothing against the bloods or Crips I know a few. But don't come and get me just saying, Hey,

Jenn Nakhai: 40:35

you're dressed in red? Yeah, yeah, I'm

Steve Bisson: 40:39

videoing this. Oh, you really? Have a gray shirt over there? Make baby wear? Interview?

Jenn Nakhai: 40:45

Why is this planned? from prison? Please disregard the colors like?

Steve Bisson: 40:53

Oops, oops. Yeah, but no, but I think it really is, though. Like on a political side, I hear stuff like that. And it just bothers me because you, you can have a different view of XYZ. My respect for you will not change. I tell people, unless you're telling me that it's great to throw kittens off an overpass, I think I might change my opinion, then. But the rest of it are just points of views. And I think that when you decide that you can't you can decide not to be moved, but you can still respect someone for having their own opinion and not push it on them. And I think that that's the other unchecked thoughts that have occurred.

Jenn Nakhai: 41:27

Oh, I mean, that's a big one, especially around religion, like, have whatever do whatever religion you feel like doing as long as I want to hear about it. You know, it's like I don't need to constantly be told, right? Or expect or expect to adhere to it either. But then at the same time, when it comes to stuff about race and stuff like that, I've been kind of changing my narrative. A little bit about like, actually can't disagree with you on this because it completely whitewashes and throws away and dismisses or disregards or oppresses really, right, entire group of people because of hateful thought that definitely went unchecked. And so just like at that point, I'm like, No, we're definitely going to have a problem now, seeing as how your, your opinion is about you being better than others. Right? And that's not fair. If it's if your opinion is based on somebody else's oppression. I don't want to hear it. Frankly.

Steve Bisson: 42:40

And to me, I think that you're absolutely right. I need to like you. You've kind of like, pointed out my flaw in my thought process. You're right. There's things I don't put up with

Jenn Nakhai: 42:49

you especially I think that's why I liked it from the beginning. It was like, oh, clearly he has the experience. Well, exactly how this works. Yeah,

Steve Bisson: 42:57

I will never pretend I went through anything that someone of color or different nationalities that are not necessarily very well invited to America. But being a French speaker, first and foremost, when I moved here, I got the treatment of the first week I was here I was stopped for directions. This is way before GPS times. And someone looked at my plate and heard my accent and say, and say give me directions. So why don't you just go back to where you're from. And I will not pretend please anyone who's listening to this, don't take it out of context. I am not comparing myself to I'm a white male. I come with a privilege that I know about. But that's why when I hear the stuff that you're talking about, and oh, based on race based on gender, based on non binary and again, not that I don't care, but for me, that's the stuff that I you can be whatever you want. I'm okay with that. I don't know all the terms. You don't hate me because of it. I won't know I like I said no kittens over and over past that's kind of my my line, so to speak. But knowing that and feeling that and I think we've gotten more entrenched with some people in regards to that. And you know, like, there's times where they would hear things like oh, Steve, Well, you're not a real immigrant. You're from Canada. And I'm like, Okay, thanks. Just my my whole culture, you just dismiss Thank you appreciate that.

Jenn Nakhai: 44:25

A whole language, a whole style of food, whole country, massive, huge with its own rituals and traditions.

Steve Bisson: 44:35

And Quebeckers being Quebeckers and oppressed in their own way for several years by the English in 1800s and 1900s. I mean, again, nothing to compare myself to anyone a person of color, because that to me is so different. But it's similar.

Jenn Nakhai: 44:52

But you see where you see where it's in. intersectionally like, similar. Like okay, yeah, depends. You got hatred. that day for where you were from, you could get hatred tomorrow for a totally different reason. Because maybe you're disabled. Or maybe you just so happen to be a woman.

Steve Bisson: 45:15

And you get it sometimes for like, you know, for me, it's also happened when you, I'm a staunch feminist, I'm a staunch equalitarian on everything. You name it. But you also get hate for that. You know, for me, it's just not, I will never treat a woman differently than I treat a man. The same respect the same everything. And for some people like Oh, so you're soft, because you're a therapist. You

Jenn Nakhai: 45:44

know, they make different therapists different ways, because we're not earthy crunchy granola over here.

Steve Bisson: 45:54

Well, you know, I think that someone mentioned when they said, you know, there's this and I can't remember the words to use, but I liked it. I think that me and you fall in that category. We're kind of like that. New, truthful, personable therapists. We are not a blank slate. We're not. Yeah, I'm not I'm not gonna wear like, you know, my earthy, crunchy stuff. And I'm not eating granola bars all the time.

Jenn Nakhai: 46:21

My My office is not gonna say live, laugh, love. They will It will never actually it's not allowed.

Steve Bisson: 46:29

Well, in my office, there's two sides that people tend to really like one of them is maybe swearing will help and swears question mark.

Jenn Nakhai: 46:42

I call them sentence enhancers. Wow. Well, the best one I've ever seen. And one of the therapists offices at AON was actually before she was working at Aon. And I had met her working in a community health center. And I walk into her, I'm brand new, she's going to train me that day. And also, I look up to her wall, and I see this teeny, tiny little frame and a massive wall. Right? So of course, it has my attention. And when I walk up to him, what it says is Haters gonna hate. Right? Wow, the knowledge imparted upon me in that moment. Like, that's the deepest thing I've ever seen any of this actually true, right? Turns out, it turns out, yeah, I am happy that I got to meet you before the pandemic, that you were there throughout the pandemic, that you got your podcast going, because it's been helpful for me to hear other practitioners see how they pivot their businesses, how they go about their business was, what their opinions are, what they're allowed to say what they're not allowed to say. Right? There's always a point there where people are like, You're their best. You can't give your opinion on this. How come I am a therapist, I literally can

Steve Bisson: 48:00

write good. I'm not a blank slate anymore. Yeah. And just to kind of like complete for for this episode, I was wondering how you handle the whole people wanting to be seen face to face versus online? Because I feel that right now part of the other important part, you know, I respect people who just want to stay on line, they can make their decisions in their lives. I have not judging them, it's up to them. But how did you handle people who might have been wanting to be seen face to face, especially at the beginning? And where are you at now in regards to all that with your practice?

Jenn Nakhai: 48:37

Well, we are seeing folks face to face. It's a lot of the longtime clients, a lot of families, a lot of people with little little kids, where it's much, it's like, significantly, exponentially harder to do telehealth with littler ones. It really goes by the therapists choice. If they feel comfortable seeing people in person, some therapists come to the office and work from the office because they feel more comfortable and they need that working space. But I did not struggle to tell people before there was even a vaccine, not to come to the office because people will send me threatening messages or we will refuse to do therapy. You can refuse to do therapy wherever you want. There's a waitlist everywhere. So you could go either on my whitelist or someone else's that's fine with me. It's just that I don't can't tell you when we're going to be back online because I have therapists who see people in person and then I have the majority of therapists who don't. We've also had a bunch of therapists step up during the pandemic and say, Hey, this would really be really good for my career. I can do it from far away or I've moved abroad. We have therapists now who are living in Mexico. So who go to Puerto Rico, for example, like me all the time. And because your licenses here, you can continue to practice here, wherever you are licensed, because we have therapists with multiple licenses, licenses. They have found this financial freedom and this kind of like career independence that they've never had before. Because it's always gotta be in our punch in hand, and getting there and doing your timesheets. And it's just like, No, we have better ways of handling this now. And even as a business, I changed what my overhead costs were, what I'm going to invest in what I want to change for the therapists, how I keep the therapeutic milieu open for people who do want to come in and who are interested in that we really are not offering a lot of new slots. In person anymore, is really case by case and depending on therapist availability, because I'm also not going to burn out our first frontline, which happened in 2020. Real fast, within months, a for the very first time in my company's career, we had no space for anyone. And I was hiring people as fast as I possibly can. Right. So it was just like, either we go with the flow, or it's back to the weightless y'all like at this point. We were getting overflows from mgh, because of the language capacity, we we started to get calls about that. It was, again in the chaos that I feel familiar with.

Steve Bisson: 51:32

Right? I was gonna say that, but You took the words out of my mouth.

Jenn Nakhai: 51:37

Diving in, okay, yes. All of that, because of my wonderful team, we were able to get it together and provide as much as we could. Because when people couldn't go to emergency rooms for mental health emergencies, and they were being turned away for COVID related reasons, which made perfect sense to me like, yeah, maybe that's not where we should be right now, where you're actively floridly, psychotic. You know, it was trying to triage all of that as to the best of our abilities as fast as we possibly could. And I have to say, everyone on the team that has been with us since the beginning of the pandemic has been on top of it, like really proud of their work and carrying their weight and making sure that they're taking care of became my job, right. And not just showering them with gifts and pizza parties. Now, like, actually being there for support, trying to connect with them as often as possible, but the office culture changed entirely, we don't have staff meetings,

Steve Bisson: 52:35

right? Is that the future of therapy for us, especially after a pandemic,

Jenn Nakhai: 52:41

a might be a big chunk of it might become a big chunk of because just in timing alone, I can be seen by my therapist at 1pm. And by 2pm Have lunch ready for everyone? And look at guy and have to travel for half an hour this way, half an hour the other way. I don't have to pay for parking. I don't have to do so many of the other things that for people who had accessibility issues before maybe that was a problem. Right? It depends. I think it's gonna say kind of hybrid I I like having a therapist that I can see in the office when I feel like it. And I also like having the option of being able to just call her and be like, Listen, I need your support right now.

Steve Bisson: 53:29

Right. And I think that that's one of the things that I've been asked because they're like, Well, you were already ahead of the curve about telehealth. And they someone I've been asked for people I trust, and they said, what's the future of therapy, Steve? This the future of therapy is hybrid. And we need to embrace it. Some people will only do well face to face. And that's a fact that's not an argument. This is not like they're being difficult that nothing else. And people do. Some people do so much better and telehealth and that's a fact. And it's not something we can argue and texting, even though, you know, as I say, vague, vaguely said I worked for a company that did texting. And I don't mention names. I don't think they're doing it right. That's why I don't mention names. Yeah. But I think there's ways of doing text therapy that's going to be very beneficial in the future. And I think that we can't dismiss and it's going to be hopefully not dismissed, but they're starting to think about no more Tella telephone therapy. And I think that's a mistake, because I've had people have immense breakthroughs because the eye to eye contact from a video or from face to face is too much for them. So by doing it by the on the phone, they're just opening up. So I think that for me, when we think about the future of therapy and what the pandemic has brought us is that we now understand a lot more the clinical aspect of all approaches and stop telling people and I'm exaggerating lay on the couch, look away from me, I'm gonna sit at the head of the couch, and you're gonna tell me stuff, or everything's got to be, you know, touchy feely, it's going to be a hybrid. And I think that if we don't embrace the hybrid, and I think that, thank you, pandemic, I can't believe I'm saying that, but I'm gonna say it anyway. Thanks to the pandemic, I think we've realized that the work that we can do that can be very successful has to be delivered in the way that's received by the client the

Jenn Nakhai: 55:27

best. Yeah, yeah. So we got over 400 clients per week, during our like, peak time, in 2020, was, we were servicing about 400 people per week, it was, so it was something like out of control. And the thing is that people felt like they even needed multiple appointments per week. I mean, everybody was struggling for one reason or the other, including the therapists and they and they pushed through, and they taught me even skills to regulate in the process, and we were there for each other, it was crazy.

Steve Bisson: 56:03

We need to be able to be there for therapist. And for me, the change in the office is also as well. Productivity cannot be your first motivator. You got to remember that of all, you know, I want businesses, all businesses to understand mental health and understand trauma informed. But I think that in our particular business, we have to start realizing that therapists are humans and 80% 70% obligation of what's it called productivity rate. That's taking no account into a humans loss, a humans struggles, or

Jenn Nakhai: 56:47

we hailer. So Well,

Steve Bisson: 56:52

obviously, you're coming back. We already know that. But just because you know, in case people catch the first no catch the second, where can people reach you?

Jenn Nakhai: 57:01

You can always reach me by sending me an email to get an help. That's g e t AEO. N. H e. l p@gmail.com. And follow us on social media. It's at AON counseling on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn.

Steve Bisson: 57:19

Well, I'm gonna put that in the show notes, obviously. But thank you. I can't wait to get our second interview done. Because I think we're gonna have a whole lot to say about that. But thank you so much.

Jenn Nakhai: 57:31

Oh, thank you. And thank you for being my teacher.

Steve Bisson: 57:35

Bye. Well, this concludes episode 47 and finding your way through therapy Janaka. We'll be back next episode. So I hope you join us then. Please like, subscribe or follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for information, educational, and entertainment purposes. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor or therapist for consultation.