E.65 My Favorite (Expletive Deleted) Episode With Susan Roggendorf

 My favorite episode this season was an amazing, animated, and informative conversation with Susan Roggendorf. We discuss a variety of subjects, including heterosexual norms, LGBTQIA+ community, as well as first responders and her work with this population. We talk about our experiences in the ER, Susan explains how she has decided to challenge all the norms so that she can be herself.  We also discuss the current political issues going on currently and how to be more hands on and can make a difference via social justice.

 Susan Roggendorf is a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor in Illinois and a Licensed Mental Health Counselor in Iowa. She's the LGBTQ+ owner of Coffelt Counseling Services in the Quad Cities. Susan works with folks living with anxiety in her LGBTQIA2s+ community. and with First Responders grappling with anxiety as well as other life issues. When not in her garden or busy annoying her adult kids, she's hosting and producing her own podcast, F*ck The Rules.

You can find her podcast here.

You can reach her practice here.

You can find her Instagram here.

Finally, you can visually see this interview here.

Transcript

Steve Bisson: 0:01

Hi and welcome to finding your way through therapy. I am your host, Steve Bisson. I'm an author and mental health counselor. Are you curious about therapy? Do you feel there is a lot of mystery about there? Do you wonder what your therapist is doing and why? The goal of this podcast is to make therapy and psychology accessible to all by using real language and straight to the point discussions. This podcast wants to remind you to take care of your mental health, just like you would your physical health. therapy should not be intimidating. It should be a great way to better help. I will demystify what happens in counseling, discuss topics related to mental health and discussions you can have what your thoughts I also want to introduce psychology in everyday life. As I feel most of our lives are enmeshed in psychology. I want to introduce the subtle and not so subtle ways psychology plays a factor in our lives. It will be my own mix of thoughts as well as special guests. So join me on this discovery of therapy and psychology. Hi, and welcome to episode 65 of finding your way through therapy. I am Stevie so if you haven't listened to Episode 64 was the most popular one. It was with Jay ball and Caitlin D I hope you go back and listen to it was a great interview. And I think there's a reason why it was most popular. But now for my favorite and that's episode 65 If you asked me to save for fact 100% This was my favorite, I would say I guess it was and the reason why not because of anything about Susan. But it was such a great conversation with Susan Rogan Dorf, and we talked about emergency service work, we talked about doing therapy, we talked about feminism. We talked about LGBTQ i A plus group. We talked about so many things that are near and dear to my heart. So while I love talking about yes work with Cara and Bill I love talking to Pat about spirituality. love talking to Lisa in regards to neuroplasticity and spirituality Stephanie Simpson gave me a great conversation about narratives, as well as mind body spirit. Love the cut trauma conversation with Jill Karolina brought up so many good things about private practitioners as well as sole proprietors and the pressures they have Kathryn DeMonte and Shadow Work was amazing. And you know, I could talk about climbing and how physical health and mental health and doing the two at once is just so helpful. And sobriety and recovery. I mean, I could talk about all those things forever. And that was a great conversation with Rachel but I had to put my foot down and choose Susan. And I just want you to listen to that and really take into consideration that it was a very tough task. So enjoy the interview. Hi, and welcome to episode 58 of finding your way through therapy. I am Steve B. So if you haven't listened episode 57 yet please do so Stephanie Simpson was very interesting. talk a lot about informed leadership, her experience with therapy and art therapy and I thought was a great conversation. So please go back and listen to that if you haven't done so. But episode 58 will be with Susan Roggendorf. And I hope I got her name right. Susan is a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor in Illinois, and a licensed mental health counselor in Iowa. She's the LGBTQ plus owner of CO found counseling services in a Quad City Susan works with folks living with anxiety in the community as well as first responders, when not in our garden are busy annoying her adult kids she's hosting and producing her own podcast fuck the rules. I've been on that podcast before so I'm sure that's gonna come up in our conversation. But here is the interview. Hi, and welcome to episode 58 of finding your way through therapy. It's also YouTube channel. That's going to be the number eight episode that's going to be on the YouTube channel. And I'm very happy to have Susan Here Susan Roggendorf. So Susan is someone I've actually listened to her podcast fuck the rules, and I really have enjoyed it and we connected she said I was looking for a guest. She sent me from the swearing therapists that she was going to be a guest. I'm like, Oh, that's great. So you should listen to fuck the rules or something like that. Like I think you're missing that I'm the same person. So I'm like, Ah shit. So Susan, someone I really enjoyed listening to I've obviously follow her on Instagram and everything else. And I will be or have been on their podcast I will be will be by done. Alright, great. So hopefully I'll put that in the show notes too. So you can go listen to my appearance and our zoom issued infested bullshit. That happened again today. So I just think the world's against this is

Susan Roggendorf: 4:37

like you said they're afraid and they should be. We got some great shit.

Steve Bisson: 4:40

I think that that's why because we don't fuck around and they don't like that.

Susan Roggendorf: 4:44

Exactly. And if more people did like we did, I think we all have a lot better place than we are right now. That's for sure.

Steve Bisson: 4:52

Well, maybe it's good because now I feel like I know you because we've talked a couple of times now but it might be important for my audience here and finding your way through therapy. You do kind of know you. So tell me a little bit about yourself.

Susan Roggendorf: 5:02

Sure. My name is Susan Aurobindo. I am a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor in the state of Illinois. I am in private practice now. But I started out doing er work during a crisis clinician through the crisis stabilization unit in across cities. And that taught me a lot about the nature of therapy, the nature of crisis, the nature of emergency care, I have family and friends who were just about in every area of first responders that I can think of, I mean, whether that's EMS paramedic, in the ER in the hospital work, whether they're law enforcement, military, I've been married to military, so it's just, I've pretty much had a lifelong experience exposed to that cohort that I actually provide therapy for to, I'm also queer, I came out when I was 4644, something like that. I knew I was pretty lonely, it was age of seven just didn't have a word for it. I just knew I like girls, as much as I like boys, then as a teenager bisexual was the label that was thrown out there. I went with that for a long time. But then, in my 30s, late 30s, early 40s, I realized I really didn't care about what we call the party favors they're bringing to the party, I just like the person. So whatever to APO box, you got, I don't really give a shit, I just want to know you as the person. So then I decided that the real descriptor would be pansexual. So, in case anybody's wondering out there, it's always about copper paths for me, okay, I'm just gonna put it out there. That means because that's the joke, you know, so you'd like pants. Yes, the copper bottoms are best, you know, they're of course, the more expensive that's, that's sort of where I am, I graduated in 2013 with my degree and get licensed, spent a long time in the ER, working with everybody from those that were anxious and depressed to those persons who have made thought about suicide to those who actually attempted and thankfully did not complete to persons that are were having active psychosis either through psychological issues, and or substance use. So I've nothing says you're you've arrived when you put into basically a headlock and there's being feces thrown around. You know, that's not the family gatherings I go to that was.

Steve Bisson: 7:31

That's, that's the spent er special, right?

Susan Roggendorf: 7:33

That's right. So and I will say that, now that I am practice, full time, private practice, I do miss my crew. And I don't miss a lot of the bullshit that went along with the work that we did there. But I will say that my er crew, especially the overnights that I started out in for several years, they were some of the best people I've ever met. And they were just as black hearted into humor as I was. So it just, it was a really good crew. And then just I finally got burnt to a crisp, I couldn't take any more of the stress. Mainly because of the bullshit that was surrounding what we did. And you and I have kind of talked in the past about what that is, and just decided that I need to go into private practice. And finally, I just decided that even though everybody says you're gonna have to file for bankruptcy, you can't do private practice on your own said, Fuck it. And here I am. Well, I

Steve Bisson: 8:28

like that your career has been single, we have parallel careers. I think we talked about this before. And for me having the fuck it's about whatever people say, Who gives a shit. I feel that for from you, and certainly something that we related to. So I think that's why people are afraid because we're told to not do certain things or like, I'll do it twice, just to fuck with.

Susan Roggendorf: 8:49

Yes, exactly.

Steve Bisson: 8:52

And so many good things came out of that because I did just your quick intro. Going into private practice after doing all that stuff. What brought you to private practice other than burnout from er work? And by the way, it's smearing fishies with their names on the wall. That's really my top story from the

Susan Roggendorf: 9:11

Okay, well, you know, we each have a PC story. Just as interesting as mine. So, yeah, we'll have to do some comparison later.

Steve Bisson: 9:19

I've got jail stories, too. So imagine those, oh, well,

Susan Roggendorf: 9:23

you're gonna you're gonna tap me on that because I have not done jail, any kind of jail work. I won't, I won't have anything. So you'll win that that group of story so but if we can compare the work, we'll get on

Steve Bisson: 9:33

that because got a couple of doozies.

Susan Roggendorf: 9:37

Um, so it was the question again, I got lost in the VC stories. So we

Steve Bisson: 9:42

we know a little bit about your getting burned out but er, and we can always share that with the audience here who haven't listened to our podcast that I did on yours. But I also think that there must be other reasons why you go into private practice other than just being burned out.

Susan Roggendorf: 9:57

Well, I think it's because It's not that I didn't like the patients I was working with. But I also wasn't reaching that group of persons, I really felt most strongly needed the support, and that is first responders, and law enforcement, because there are those persons in law enforcement that aren't part of first responder work, like jail, county, prisons, things like that, as well as hospital staff, hospital staff don't get the support either. And having family and friends and co workers in all of those fields, I really want to be able to fucking stump that stigma out to say that just because you need help, doesn't mean you're fucking weak. If anything, it means that you have the courage to say something isn't working, I need to talk to somebody who knows what this can be like, or knows what I'm talking about. And I don't have to educate them, I could just go in and say, This is the shit that's going down and I am over it, I can't do this anymore. And I want to, I want to be able to break that stigma and say, you know, get your answers into the office, see somebody that can help you get to the next point of getting this, if not taken care of at least managed wellness, so you can go back to your life. And then the LGBTQ plus community that I belong in, we've always needed that kind of support. There are persons that choose not to work with that group. And that's and that's their gig, you know, I'm not going to put them down, everybody goes into their own niche, right. But I wanted to be there to support persons to continue the work that had started me on the path of being able to be who I was. And that came through therapy as well was someone who was very formative wasn't part of the community, but very formative, very safe to be around. And I wanted to be a part of that kind of cohort of therapists that could do that for our community. So that's kind of why I got into private practice, aside from the burnout.

Steve Bisson: 11:52

Okay. And I certainly hear a lot of different things I want to ask you about, you said your own therapy, which is always interesting to me, because finding your way through therapy is exactly that. I tell people that being in therapy is actually a sign of strength, not a weakness. What made you reach out to therapy would help the most. And maybe I think the other part that I really find interesting is, you know, I'm a Mr. privilege, I'm a white heterosexual male, in this world, I'm getting older, so I'm almost there to for that old part. But there is never going to be a time where I will not be an ally, to our LGBTQ i A plus community never will change that. But I think that how do we also help being hurt getting heterosexuals on board so to speak, I don't like the whole pride month thing, not because I don't believe in pride. I believe that pride is 12 months a year. You know, if you're attract, I, when people tell me that they're gay, I always go like, Great, I'm happy for you. But to me, that's not consequential unless it's affected you negatively, and I will do the therapy about that. But to me, it's like good for you. I think there's so many questions that come with that. So how do we become an ally? Number one, and number two, the other thing I would love to hear is more about your experience in therapy and how it changed. Did it help you get out of the closet so to speak,

Susan Roggendorf: 13:11

okay? To speak to the first part, which is becoming an ally, a lot of times you and I find that persons are afraid of things they don't know. And that's hard to believe even in 2022 that people don't know about what it means to be gay. What it means to be someone who might be now non binary, right? What it means to be a gender fluid and what does it mean to be sis which is that gender you were assigned at birth? I identify as sis female? Well, I have no problem with the girly jiggly bits. They're part of who I am. And that's

Steve Bisson: 13:44

just me. But if someone doesn't know what sis is, can you explain that

Susan Roggendorf: 13:49

since is basically the gender of signed? When you're born, it's not your sex, it's you know, you're seen as female. And I wish I could remember what ces means right now and I can't come up with the Ackermann like, there is and I can't Yeah, so menopause brain like right now it just right through their head. But to say that your your sis means that's the gender you were assigned at birth, because that's what was recognized as one binary or the other either male or female, right. And as we have grown as human beings, we realized that some persons internally do not match what they've been assigned outside. And to be an ally is to be educated and I'm at the have been taking, you know, workshops and diving, diving deep into coursework and things like that. It means reading information from reliable sources. There's the Trevor Project that works with teens. That is hugely important because they provide support for teens who are feeling either caught in environments where they can't express who they are, or they've been victimized because of who they are as teens. Basically try To save lives for teens who are suicidal, because they can't get that support as part of our community, LGBTQ plus, we've got all kinds of other organizations out there including like free mom hugs, that talks to parents who may not be in the community themselves, but they have children who are part of them. There's also the free dad hugs who are part of that organization as well. You'll see persons including myself out in different events that that around the LGBTQ plus community wearing shirts that say free mom hugs, or we have shirts, like one of my other shirts that says, if your mother or father doesn't want you, you're my child now. And I'm going to be that support for you, I will help you get to that next step of helping you have a healthy life. So you want to get into things like that locally, you might have stuff, we have the project of the class cities here, that provides a lot of information. There are now clinics like the LGBTQ plus clinic in Iowa City through the University of Iowa Hospitals. So you just have to take a look around locally, depending on where you're at, on what organizations will have the most reliable information. If it's a fringe group that is bent towards one specific view. I do not recommend those obviously. Because the bigger organizations that recognize as reliable won't be able to present you not just the information about LGBTQ plus community, but give you the history of it. And where are we going? How can you support persons, whether you're in the community or not? So to be an allies to educate yourself? That's number one. Number two, I just think it's about accepting people for being a human being. Right? I don't know how fucking else to say that. I mean, I don't I don't care if you're a sis white male, what I care about is, are you a good person, meaning you're not actively setting out to harm persons, because they don't look like you send like the word looks like you right? Now, so what if they don't love like you do as long as it is not harming anyone? Right? What's the big deal. And the Gay Agenda is just to be human. There, I sent it, I gave it away, my toaster away now, because I gave away the secret

Steve Bisson: 17:07

of finding your way through therapy exclusive,

Susan Roggendorf: 17:10

please note. The loop I told her,

Steve Bisson: 17:16

you're gonna lose that gift bag. They also gave you

Susan Roggendorf: 17:19

Oh, I didn't get a gift bag. I just wanted the toaster. And that's what I got. So

Steve Bisson: 17:23

see Bagley around here in Boston at least gives you a gift bag with that too. All right.

Susan Roggendorf: 17:31

I mean, that's the gay agenda. We just want to be accepted as humans, we want rights the same as everybody else does. Right? So that's the first question of being an ally. The second one is about my own therapy. And I am not shy about it. I'm not ashamed of it. I was in my 20s. And I was having a really difficult time being a mom. Right? I came from trauma. And I was having difficulties being a mom, I was having difficulties. In my third marriage, I've been married three times, because you know, I've got to fit that heteronormative ideal of what it means to be a woman in our society. And I started going to a couple therapist, I did not click, and I talked about this to family, friends, clients, patients, that the first person isn't necessarily going to be the therapist for you. Because it's like anything else. It's about meeting with someone that you're going to be comfortable enough to be vulnerable and feel safe to share things you've not said to anyone else. Right? For whatever reason. And it was my third try. When I finally found Linda Jones, she was to the employee assistance program of the place that I was working at before they were contracted through a local hospital, Community Mental Health Wellness Program. And it's because of Linda, that over the course of often on of about 10 years, there was a lot of shit for me to go through, we would start with one thing work through it, I would need a fucking break. And then something else would come up and we'd work on that. And it's because of her work and her ability to make me feel safe and heard that I could say things I hadn't been able to say before, which included I fucking dig chicks as much as I dig dudes. So what does that make me? Other than bisexual? And is it is it allowed? And what does that mean to be mom? And how do I model this for my kid? Or do I model this for my kid? And oh my god, what is the follow up for my family when they find out? Do I say anything to my family? It was a lot of pulling things away that had been layered on me as expectations and the idealized perception of who Susan was that I accepted as my own that I had to pull that shit off of me and see me for who I really was for myself. Right and I certainly wasn't the squarey don't give a shit attitude back then than I am now. That's been a work in progress for like 2530 years. So it was the best thing I ever fucking done other than having my kids.

Steve Bisson: 20:07

So they don't give a shit out to this more like 20 to 30 years old now.

Susan Roggendorf: 20:12

It's more like 15 years old. I mean, I mean to really live that I don't give a fuck anymore. That's about 15 years. Okay? And especially in the last five, where I know I'm over 50 Fuck you. I'm not dealing with your your kick ideas of how things are supposed to be. No, no, I'm not doing that I have, I have so much thing I have so many things to do in such a short time before I take the big old dirt nap. Fuck your shit. I'm not I'm not dealing with you. I'm going to deal with my own so I can figure out how I can achieve the things I want to do before I grew up that I got shit to do get out of my way,

Steve Bisson: 20:49

then you bet you've had to repress where you were for so long to so there's a lot of shit that catch up if you ask me. Absolutely. But one of the things that you said that I really push on this podcast regularly, and I'm gonna say just what you said. And I really appreciate what you said is that it you know, took about three different tries before finding the right therapist. And I tell people like it's not CBT it's not DBT it's not whatever fucking type of therapy you think it is. It's the therapeutic alliance that works. And there's nothing else. And therapy is also something that's messy. And I think that a lot of people don't understand. And also you're trained in first responders like both of us, we're kind of done for a long time. That doesn't mean I have a fucking magic wand in the back of my fucking truck.

Susan Roggendorf: 21:37

Oh, yeah. Wouldn't be nice witness. Oh, look, first

Steve Bisson: 21:39

responders. Let me get the right magic.

Susan Roggendorf: 21:43

Just a minute, I've got this box.

Steve Bisson: 21:46

And I think that that's the stuff that I really appreciate what you said, you went back and forth with I can't remember her name. Linda was a great therapist. Fantastic. How do you communicate that with your clients today because I especially first responders, I love my first responders. That's one of my passions. But a lot of them are looking for the magic one sometimes. And I know I don't carry it. And if there was one that was taught to me at my college, when I was doing the straining, I was fucking sick that day or something?

Susan Roggendorf: 22:18

Well, I don't think that any of us get the magic wand during our training because somebody somewhere has to have had it. And that's one thing that is therapists we like to do is let other people know this shit works. Try this. Right. So nobody has that magic wand. Basically, when I tell my clients, especially my first responders who I love working with them, and as well as hospital persons, and other law enforcement, is that unlike what you see in fucking media, which just perpetuates the stereotype of this aha moment, and everything's blissful, and they go off in the sunset, and everything's great. That's a lot of shit, right? In my therapy, things got uncomfortable. Sometimes they were so painful, I would stand up in the middle of search and tell my therapist, go Buck yourself and walk out and come back the next week, right? Because I was processing all that. And we found a better way for me to be able to handle those horrible feelings other than saying fuck you and walking out, sometimes it was just fuck you. And she'd give me 10 minutes to settle down or whatever. And then we continue. But I tell my clients, especially my first responders, at all that you can tell me to fuck off, I'm not going to take it personally, that's a response to me that says we're getting close to something, right. And that if you need space, I will give you that space in we may not pursue it for the rest of the session, but we will revisit it in a future session. And it's frustrating, it's so fucking frustrating because they have so much to do. And sometimes they're coming in at the direction of their department or their manager or their supervisor, whatever. Now, I do not have the training to do fit for evaluation, fit for duty evaluations, I just don't do that. I don't think it's my job to do that. And I leave it to other persons to pick up that duty. So that's one thing that helps ease some of the tension when my first responders come in knowing that I am not doing a fit for duty, which is a different set of evaluations. Mine is just talking about what the fuck is going on. Why is this not working for you anymore? What happens? And what is it that's getting in your way, and it's going to take a little bit of time. It's going to get maybe some really ugly awful feelings at times, but I'm here I'm sure shit not going to flinch. Because believe me, I've been through a lot of shit. But I'm here to to keep this space available so they can explore what the fuck is going on.

Steve Bisson: 24:39

And I think you said a lot of good things in regards to for me when you're in therapy. I have a board in my office and I think I've shared this on my podcast we'll share it again because it's a good story. There's a fu board on my wall, and every time someone tells me to fuck off I go check off the board. If insurance companies are listening, fu stands for follow. left just for the record. But for the rest of you, it leaves pluck off. And I tell people, that's the ultimate compliment you can give me. And I tell them that if you trust me, and you tell me to fuck off, that means I got you. And to me, that's not a, you need five minutes to go to the bathroom, calm yourself, when I don't care, we'll do that. But to me, it's the ultimate compliment, because that is not a detriment to our relationship. In fact, it helps the relationship. I don't know what you think about that, but,

Susan Roggendorf: 25:30

but it shows trust, it shows that there is a point that you've gotten to an area that is so dark and ugly and wiggly, and it's just, it's shit. And you've been able to ignore it, ignore it, ignore it. Now it's in the middle of the room, and you have trusted me enough to put it in the middle of the room. Now, you recognize it for what it is you tell me to go? Fuck off. Okay, okay. Well put the shit in the box, if you want to deal with it later in the session, right? If not, we will address it. And then in a future session. I'm cool with that. Right? But for you to tell me to fuck off to tell me to go fuck yourself, or whatever the fuck phrase of your choice is. It's a trust thing. I know that you've trusted me enough to feel that you can say exactly how you're feeling at that moment. And it's not pre rehearsed from when you just came in through the door.

Steve Bisson: 26:19

I always like the fact that some of my clients are so used to it, they're like, Oh, get ready to go put a checkmark on your board.

Susan Roggendorf: 26:27

I think I might have board envy, I may have to go do that.

Steve Bisson: 26:31

As I like that, because it's literally I have like three or four clients that literally go fucking board on yours is gonna get another checkmark here. Like, that's great. But they created so much trust and openness to using that language and all that because one of the other things that I kind of wanted to, I was thinking about it. While we were saying that a lot of people are afraid of that language. And I think that first responders in particular, that's the language sometimes they can use in order to express very difficult stuff. I certainly see that also in ER, people, I see that in last responders with people who work, the medical examiner's and the forensic people will No, I'll never forget my court people either. But do you feel that you know that that's part of what we need to be more open to and let people have that language and make it comfortable for them?

Susan Roggendorf: 27:19

Absolutely, because I think part of that issue, and I'm a language nerd about how language develops and how we use to express ourselves. And that was one of my studies in my undergrad. And the word McHugh is a very aggressive term. And I mean, it's something that for some people, it puts them on the defensive, they don't want to do conflict. But if you come at them with a view, that's usually a sign that shits gonna go down, right. And in those occupations where shit goes down all the time, that's going to be part of the lexicon. Now, not everybody in those careers, has that extensive of swear language, like what we do. Some, some of them feel perfectly adequate, using other terms, and that's fine. But I don't think you should be seen as something horrible and taboo, if that's what it takes to help you express how you're truly feeling. And that can be everything from excitement, to sexiness to anger, by all means use it. Right? I don't see a problem. As long as there's an opportunity to explore that a little bit to find out what that fuck you really means. If you don't know what it means being able to ask for clarification.

Steve Bisson: 28:35

Right. And I think that sometimes what one of the first responders I've worked with has said to me, sometimes there's no word fuck you fits perfectly. When you don't even know how to get that word out. It might be 12 words, and it's too complicated to get all all of that out. So fuck you works really well or fuck off, or whatever. I tell people that it's always important to find a way to express it no matter how it is. Because if you're going to be so hung up on the word, then you're probably the serving the people that's in front of you.

Susan Roggendorf: 29:05

And there are some people that just don't feel comfortable with the state. And that's okay. You know, if they prefer to have an environment where that's not used, they will attract a certain clientele that feel more comfortable with that with that therapist. And that's fine. You know, and I've said before that if my if, as a therapist, I have a client coming in, and they don't feel comfortable swearing. That's cool. I will dump it down. And we will just talk and that's fine. Right? I've also had persons who come in the first time their mouth is you're not going to fucking get to me. Okay. I'm not sure what you mean by that. But you showed up and you wanted to dirty set my chair. So maybe we should talk about why you're here. Not sure what's going on. You're not gonna

Steve Bisson: 29:48

get me. Okay. What am I supposed to say to that?

Susan Roggendorf: 29:53

Yeah, it showed up. Let's talk about that. Right. I don't think the language should be a barrier I think think it should be utilized in a way that makes the therapist feels comfortable to allow the clients to feel comfortable. If that means you swear, great. If it means you don't suffer, fantastic, if it means that you have to use music, to help get things across perfect, if it means you have to use artwork to help express emotions to that's perfect, the medium of art is there to help us tell stories, and that that has to happen in session to, then so be it.

Steve Bisson: 30:25

And I think that you bring up another point is that art shows up in different forms, I had a guest a few episodes ago. And the best compliment she said, because she's a singer and is also a coach and, and I said I can't sing, I don't have a voice I can't sing she's like, but yet you're on podcast, I don't know 45 At that point. So your voice is still a gift. And your the way you express yourself is probably unique. And that's what people want to hear. And so I think that that's another thing that I've used since then with my clients saying, This is how you express yourself, and maybe you know, that may not be everyone's cup of tea. In fact, I hope you're not everyone's cup of tea. But it might also be the what someone needed to hear at the right time. And I remind myself of

Susan Roggendorf: 31:09

that, too. I think that's a very apt phrase. I mean, it's your voice has meaning for someone somewhere, not for everybody. And that's okay, because I'm not sure I would want to be accepted by everyone, whatever that term means, I mean, general populace or whatever, I just want to make sure that the persons that I'm reaching understand I'm someone that they can talk to. And if I'm not the therapist for them, I will make sure I get them resources so they can find the most appropriate person.

Steve Bisson: 31:40

A little bit of the crisis that we have overall in this country is the lack of therapists. And I don't know if you're finding that in the Quad Cities in in your area, but I know for our area's been difficult. How do we get more people in the profession number one or number two? How do we get more people to engage more clients? I mean, it's very difficult. We also have burnout, we also have issues so

Susan Roggendorf: 32:04

well, I think the last response to the first which is we're so burned out, we are so overloaded. That's why it's hard to find persons to come into the field because they hear about this and think, oh shit, I don't want to go into something that by 10 years that I am done with it, I'm moving on to another career. The other portion of it is fucking insurance companies. Oh, my God, oh, my God, I knew you'd get me there. See, Jenna's Oh, my health, I just,

Steve Bisson: 32:30

I opened up on your podcast, it's your turn.

Susan Roggendorf: 32:35

You know, put it on the board.

Steve Bisson: 32:42

The studio, but I will get one for the studio.

Susan Roggendorf: 32:47

It's just that insurance companies started down as a good idea. And now it's just fucked up medical care. It's fucked up a lot of things that has to do with the care and health of human beings in our country. You have companies that one of my guests Reverend, we should talk about where you order a steak and potato and it's appropriate to give you a fucking peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Because that's what the insurance company says that's the only thing you deserve. Right? Fuck you. Correct. I have clients that people talk about going into private practice just for cash only now for some persons that works wherever their market is, whatever their niche is, for most of us, we can't do that. In my area, people are heavily insured through the employer sphere, right to not take insurance really limits that population that I have found, I can't do and make a living because you know, factor likes your tacos. And I'd like a roof over my head. So I'm going to I'm going to accept it some insurance is not dependent on all of them. Right? And so when you have somebody who's a client that pays for their insurance, they want those benefits. But the problem is with insurance companies, people think, Oh, you've paid my insurance company pays you $145 An hour, if that's your rate for 45 minutes. No, that's what I would bill, if you were cash. That's what would be appropriate to cover costs of overhead rent and everything else, I have to continue my education, keep my license up all that other good stuff can eat my tacos. However, if you're going to be painted with an insurance company, they'll say, we'll give you $90 For this session, maybe, depending on the plan of the client, they may actually only give you $45. And the client won't have a copay. So that's it. You've gone from 145 down to $45. And you're supposed to figure out how to make a living from that. That is what keeps a lot of people out of going into our field of mental health. Because not only do you have to figure out how you're going to make ends meet by not getting the amount that you set in order to have a decent living and I'm talking to you know, I'm sure there are people out there that make loads more money than I do but not very many. Not without sidestream income and How do you pay for other things that you're not going to get in being employed by someone else, like, I have to pay for my own insurance. And around here you're looking at for single person, four to $500 a month, and you have a deductible of between six and $8,000 for a single person. So that also gets in the way. So insurance companies once again, stuck in you. So all of those things are what prevent a lot of people from going into private practice. And then you get old fucks like me to go, you know, what, how much worse can it be, I have been poor, I have been on food stamps, I have worked three jobs to make ends meet. How much more fucking difficult could this be. And it's something that I don't want to spend whatever time left to have, to me burdened with all the paperwork and bullshit of working in an institution or an organization for mental health. When I can go into private practice, I do have to do my paperwork. But it's nificantly less than what I had to do in a community health organization. I can spend the majority of my time actually doing therapy with my clients, right? I get to see them on a regular basis. And I watch them progress as they work through the therapy. That to me is worth the pain and effort of trying to figure out how to make ends meet as a therapist in private practice. battling with insurance companies battling with other shit that's coming down, and making sure my clients are taken care of.

Steve Bisson: 36:30

Right. And I think that that's your you hit a lot of things, right, like the nail on the head. I mean, I think that's charging four or $500, when you're in New York City for out of pocket is not unheard of, or LA or Chicago and parts of Chicago's anyway. But you go into rural Iowa or even for us, I mean, I'm in I'm in Massachusetts, you go from Boston to Central Mass, it's a different story. And I think that that's the other part that the insurance companies have preyed upon us in regards to a lot of this stuff. So I embrace that completely. Yeah, let me shift gears a little bit so that you don't tell me to fuck off too often. Because I can go on for insurance companies. But I think I went through it in a very good ranting way in your podcast, so please go listen to that. But I want to go back to a little bit of like, this is being recorded in June. We're gonna be released in July. Recently, we had roe overturned. Yep. And there's so many feelings that I have in regards to that. But more importantly, I gotta go back to a little bit of the LGBTQ community, because it's when you look at what the Justice Chief Justice Clarence Thomas said, in regards to looking at to repel other things, including gay marriage. How is I know that you can't speak for everyone in the LGBTQ community? I'm not that stupid. But how is that affecting different people in the community? Because to me, it's just like, We're fucking turning the clock back. So much on so many levels. And it's frustrating, and I'm very sad, actually. But I wanted to know, if you had any indication how it's affecting a lot of different people.

Susan Roggendorf: 38:12

I am fucking furious at this. And it's not enough to have to work for social justice continually in 2022 for my friends and family, who are persons of color and come from marginalized communities. But now we've got this, which is bullshit, because no sooner was Roe v. Wade overturned, then Thomas comes out, says, oh, and we're going to talk about same sex marriage. And we're going to talk about contraceptives. And we're also going to talk about privacy in the bedroom. Right? So all the suppose it's straight white persons that are out there thinking this can't come for me. Guess what, if you're kinky in the bedroom, they're gonna find out and it's not going to go well for you either. This doesn't stop with just Roe v. Wade. And with the LGBTQ plus community, the problem is, we just clean just got some of the basic human rights everybody else was able to enjoy. Now we're looking at the possibility having it taken away again, what the fuck this is, What country did I wake up? I just know there are countries around the world that do not have the benefits that we do living in the United States that are lightyears ahead of us in terms of human rights, and treating people like human beings. And of course there are those in our communities LGBTQ plus that are worried and scared and afraid. I also work with trans individuals and I support trans persons and trans rights. I belong to an organization that our death rates have just quadrupled right because of the Roe v Wade overturned it's like fuck where you parasites that suddenly now it's okay to you know, suddenly come out of the woodwork and attack is nothing has changed other than this overturn. And we're going to find out that too, right. But now we have to be concerned, even more so than normal about physical safety of those of us in the community. That's always been a concern. There's never not been a fucking concern about somebody coming to beat the shit out of us or kill us because we aren't like them. Right? Now it's even more. So. Now I'm really concerned for my clients, my family and friends who are part of our community. The fact that

Steve Bisson: 40:23

we're now going into private life of people. And to me that that includes abortion that includes whatever sex you decide to have, I really like in a meaning in the most loving way. I just don't care in the way that people do whatever consenting adults, I don't care. I just

Susan Roggendorf: 40:41

do whatever it is you do. But you know what? Guess what, that's the great thing about being a mature adult, is that you can say, that's just not for me, and then your fucking mind your own business, right? Oh, that's a concept a lot of people that most of the country are fine with. That's why this overturn is so stupid. Most of the country does not want this from everything I'm reading in reliable news sources, saying the percentage anywhere from 68 to 74% of the country think this is stupid. Because they want to just mind their own business and live their own lives.

Steve Bisson: 41:16

Right? Well, they think that that's what logic dictates, right? Unfortunately, we lost logic a long time ago, unfortunately, when we're trying to regulate people's vaginas are oh, you you don't feel the gender that you're assigned to and you want to change will decide that that's not right or wrong, who? And again, from the bottom of my heart, I mean this in a caring way. I don't give a fuck. Yeah, hopefully it comes off as what I have hope. It's not like I don't care, like people's lives or people's lives. And I think I hate fucking saying this. I do work with people from the LGBTQ community, I always feel like it's one of those things like, Oh, I have a white black friend, I hate that shit. But a lot of them have been scared since the leak. And I can feel it from that community, in a general sense, getting worse in the last week or so. How do we work as allies for everyone because I know I want to be your ally, I want to be everyone's ally, because I truly don't see where this country is going to make any sense of this. Because it's not an abortion is not my business, people's sexual, whatever they decide in life, it's their choice. If they don't feel their gender, again, that's their choice. And there's a lot of complexities that go with that. And I'm not trying to minimize them. But I just don't, that's not for me to decide. That's not for me to control. How do we get to a point where we can educate people around?

Susan Roggendorf: 42:42

Well, like I said earlier, which is go to those organizations that work with those persons that support those persons, mainly isn't about, do you want to put first of all, where your money where your mouth is, if you have the funds available to do so donate to those organizations that are supporting the groups that are being targeted? Right, you know, the NAACP, I have watched them and I have followed them and I have donated monies to them. Because again, failing friends who are persons of color in marginalized communities, I want them to continue having their rights, even though they're jeopardized all the fucking time. Planned Parenthood, again, if there's another organization that's really good to get information from and donate to or be part of their events and protests. The other thing is, if people have been hanging back for whatever reason, I don't know. And I'm not going to criticize because I don't know the situation. But get involved with the political system, for God's sakes, right. start educating yourself about who those public representatives are, that are supposed to be supportive of your groups and your member, your member of society, just being a human being making sure they're human rights, making sure there's good health care, because guess what, Roe v. Wade isn't going to stop at just the abortion issue. It's not going to stop at contraceptives and same sex marriage and privacy in the bedroom. Pretty soon they'll start degrading workers rights. Right? Unions were always around, folks. And there are a lot of things on the books now that protect workers, there's going to be issues with women's rights in that pertain to anything else. I mean, am I going to allow be allowed to maintain my own business, right, make a living for myself, have voting rights, everything is open now to be targeted. And we have to find ways to safeguard what rights we still have and get those rights back that we've just lost. The first thing to do, again, is go to those organizations that support those communities you want to be an ally with if you're not part of it. Secondly, start educating yourself in the political system of who's a representative that mirrors the interest and the rights that you want to have protected. Right? It's easier now than ever. I mean, for fuck sake. I'm 55 I remember used to have to go to the library to get the books which by By the way, love the library, I'm not denigrating them at all. But you'd have to go to the library, you'd have to go someplace to get the information you'd have to write or maybe call. Now, it's a matter of clicking on the internet, finding that representatives page or Congress person's page, reading about the things that they voted on why they voted on it, you can text you can email, you can call, you can still write letters, those take a little bit longer, right, there's still ways to connect with those representatives that are supposed to be there supporting you. So get involved with that.

Steve Bisson: 45:30

I think that's a great idea. And certainly with elections coming up in November for different people. I think that we need to send a strong message in regards to all that. Absolutely. So I'm not exactly sure what's going to happen next, but it ain't good.

Susan Roggendorf: 45:48

No, no, no, I don't expect anything be good. People keep bringing up Margaret Atwood's Handmaid's Tale. I know it's a series on Hulu. But I read the book when it came out originally made. He's scared the bejesus out of me, because it's talking about the very things we're living through. Well, funnily enough, Margaret Atwood has said this in multiple interviews since the book came out. She based that book on real life, historical and current events at that time, about how rights were taken away, because there was a certain sector Christian sect that decided that their way he was the only way and then we had the Republican Gillean. The problem is, people think it's just a work of fiction. It's fictionalized history, meaning that she has brought all this in. And at the time, there was still that shit happening in other countries, right, women and minorities. What a lot of people don't understand is that what's different between the book and the series, the book, nobody, unless you're white, and male, were allowed to have anything to do with any kind of job or position of power. In the Republican Gillean, the series was a little more open, they tried to modernize it a little bit more than what the book had. So here's the thing, folks, this has happened before it can happen again, we have to get off their asses and start being more active and proactive.

Steve Bisson: 47:05

And I think that what you said earlier, I come back to something you said, you know, when you were still young and trying to be heteronormative. We're going back to that, and again, this is just fucked up that we're going back to the 70s. And the 60s, in the mentality of what you need is a boy and a girl. Two and a half kids, that SUV and the white picket fence that we're going back to that shit. And to me, that's just the other part that we need to fight continuously because I still have women who have been dating for a few years now. So I'm like, I don't want any kids. And I'm like, Okay, you're not upset and like, it's your choice, but do I care? And like, do you really you don't think more or less? No, I don't give a shit. And in a good way, you don't need to fall in everybody else's box. But there's, there's a fear for me that I'm gonna have become like polygamist, so I can marry as many gay guys as I can, so I can bring them to Canada

Susan Roggendorf: 48:09

you and your tribe, okay.

Steve Bisson: 48:12

It's just weird. But I had that conversation with Mike place, he's like, you're gonna have to like become a polygamist. So you can bring us all up to train under train. And I'm gonna have to have the railroad up the candidate again.

Susan Roggendorf: 48:27

Maybe it may well be. But here's the here's the thing about the heteronormative thing. You can be hetero. But why does it have to be the norm for everyone, if you are hetero, if that's how you identify, go, powers be with you. As long as you're living the best life you can and you're not hurting yourself or anybody else. Again, as you said, I mean this in all sincerity, I really don't give a shit good. Because I'm in a mature adult, where I have my own things to do here. And I'm distracted with dealing with my kids and making sure I'm annoying them on a regular basis, taking care of my garden, taking care of my clients. So you go do who you want to do however you want to do between you, as long as it's consenting. Have at it. I don't care. And that's what I'm saying is we're not against being hetero. We're against not being treated like human beings with basic rights.

Steve Bisson: 49:19

I've never met someone who happens to be in the LGBTQ i A plus community ever say, You know what, we don't like you because you're heterosexual though they don't give a shit. And I'm like, yeah, don't take this the wrong way. I still don't give a shit about whatever you do in your private life. It's fine with me. What can I do to support you? That's more what we need to do. Absolutely. But yeah, I think that row being overturned is just going to open a can of worms that I just am afraid is gonna get worse.

Susan Roggendorf: 49:51

Guess what the candidate has been smashed on the fucking highway dude, because 13 states immediately had trigger laws that said that you're not allowed to have an abortion now. Immediately, right? tucking immediately, we've got other states that are considering bans or restrictions that have been sitting off to the side for some time now, because there had not been any kind of support for it, that are now going to suddenly come on stage to be considered, again, you've only got a handful of states, Southwest and West in the United States that it's still illegal to have an abortion.

Steve Bisson: 50:22

I mean, nobody's we're very lucky in that way. And I'm not gonna

Susan Roggendorf: 50:27

well, before before Roe v. Wade, in case it came down in the courts, and it became a federal protected right 46 states out of the Union had had illegal abortions 46 for only one more state than then that still allows legal abortion.

Steve Bisson: 50:46

Yeah, they're talking about 2020 Fucking 22. How that has come about. I mean, there's, there's, I don't know how we can always this is going to be something that piss off people. And I'm fine with that. Oh, honey, we have pissed off people from the moment you open your mouth. So when I go back to the speech, I think it's from the newsroom. And he talks about America not being the best country in the world. maternal death is one of the worst countries, there's some countries who are less quote, developed that have better numbers than we do. And then we're looking at women's rights. And we're gonna be down there again, too. And we look at our gay rights. And how can we ever say that this country is the best country in the world? Because the opportunity is only for certain people? I know exactly. I'll get in trouble for saying that.

Susan Roggendorf: 51:35

But but you know what, this also opens up the conversation about how do we start putting term limits on the Supreme Court? These people are appointed for life, and there's only nine of them. And how can nine persons have a say over the majority of the country like this? Because we've allowed it to happen? It's it was built that way, and we've never had, we've never had the opportunity, or maybe the motivation to look at things need to change in that direction.

Steve Bisson: 52:01

And maybe perhaps also looking at term limits for Senators and Representatives.

Susan Roggendorf: 52:06

Fuck yes. I mean, that's been something I have been on board with since oh my god in my 20s because I thought it was ludicrous. You can be elected ad nauseam. What? If you get enough people that pay you enough money to get you into the right elections? Or you can redraw your fucking districts? Of course, you're always gonna be in power. What? Welcome to the Middle Ages. I guess you get to have your fiefdoms.

Steve Bisson: 52:28

Yeah, I can't remember what that the name of it was when you just redistrict all the time. But it was it's based on a case in Massachusetts, no less. So they can't remember the name of it. But how about we switch? We we kind of like, go back to something that means a lot to me, which is your podcast. I've listened like, you know, people say this on their podcasts and all that. But I I don't say things. I don't mean, I listen to your podcasts every single time. Can you tell us more about your podcast?

Susan Roggendorf: 52:56

Faster? How much time do you mind gonna be allowed to go get

Steve Bisson: 52:59

my coffee?

Susan Roggendorf: 53:01

Go get that board. go to Home Depot, get that board.

Steve Bisson: 53:06

I can't leave the house though. COVID.

Susan Roggendorf: 53:09

Damage, Steve. call yourself an ally. Come on, man. Damn it. My podcast that came about because I was a guest on a couple podcasts. And they allowed me just to be myself. And I thought that's a lot of fun. And I, I'd never, ever get to this point in my life, because I really felt I didn't have much to say or put out there. Right. So then one day, it was about trans rights day, that that was an innocent day compared to where we are now. But I wanted to put my voice out there because of persons I care about people I've worked with that. I want to make sure that they know that I am there. And I want to continue working to make sure that they have basic human rights. And I put out an Instagram real. And I felt good doing that. And some of the responses I got, I got some hate mail, whatever turns it over to the right authorities. Like fuck you. I've looked, I've looked through trauma. Who the fuck are you? And that's what I do with all of my hate emails, I turn it over to authorities like it, whatever. But the fact that persons found something in it that gave them hope, or made them feel a little more understood or felt like there was one more voice saying, This has to change and I'm going to be there to continue helping find a way to change it because I'm not trans doesn't mean that I don't believe in basic human rights for everybody. So that's what started the podcast because Meg Kelly on her podcast, mental health status. It was about saying fuck your rules, because I was so burnt out and I just had had enough and it's like, why is this a rule? Well, because it's always been rolled suck your rules. And then I thought, that's gonna be my podcast, Doctor rules, because that's what I've done for the last 30 years is that I've broken out of all those expectations, you know, And like I said, I'm not an anarchist. I like having a funded police department that protects property and persons. But could there be improvements? Absolutely. For everybody in that regard. Right, right. But I also like my roads being repaired. I like municipalities, I like my water and my electricity. And I like the things that keep me safe. And I like environmental protections being put into place because I like clean air and fresh water. And I like being able to have the opportunity to support persons who want to go to either public or private education. I mean, I like all those things. But there are certain rules and traditions that are sorry, cake, and we're just doing it because we've always done it. Nobody's examined it before, right. And there were persons I really admired and respected that aren't doing the same old thing according to whatever rule or or law or tradition or whatever, and said, Fuck the rules. I'm going to do it this way. And yeah, they may have stumbled demain have had a hard time, but they're getting someplace. And they're happier, and they're healthier for it. That's why I wanted to start my podcast. And that's, I'm in season two now. And I'm just about ready to start dropping Season Two on July 12. But I am so lucky that there are so many persons like yourself that I hear your podcasts. I'm like, Fuck, yeah. That's, that's what we need to be talking about, which is why I wanted to use one of my guests because I like you, I listen to your podcasts, and I find out information from you and your guests that you have, which are phenomenal. And I just want to make sure there's more information for persons who are going outside of the expectation that's been layered on them. I talked about that before where I had to peel that off of me because it's been put on me by others, right? I want people to have that opportunity to to say no, I got it, I gotta get this off of me because that's not really who I am. It's not who I feel. And if you get that from my podcast, and either from me or from my guests that I have on and it resonates with you, and you find a resource that allows you to continue to grow as a human being so that you feel better and and your life feels healthier to you. So be it

Steve Bisson: 57:03

well, I like your explanation I will share with you my favorite podcast that you did was with a former police officer who became a works with the mental health community now Grayson, yes, I mean names are not friends, you obviously you obviously saw that right away when we started recording this. But really, it was so nice to listen to someone who has been there done that and looking at it in a different light. And to me whenever I listened to your podcast, I

Susan Roggendorf: 57:33

think you had your when I say your son in law on it's either Steven or it was John. John is the mountain climber Stevens the scientists, the scientists.

Steve Bisson: 57:43

Yes. And bringing science into this shit is also very important. And I really liked that when I could go on and on. But this is just from between you and me. I think that what you bring to the table also is that you can be the swearing therapist fuck the rules, but also have structure and both can coexist. You don't have to be an nr kiss. Or socialists you can be somewhere in between and be able to flex depending on the situation. I love my first responders, my last responders. Do I want them to be more mental health and form do I want them to learn how to do things differently? Yes. Do I think that mental health people who work in the police first responder realm sheriff and all that? Did they need to change their fucking attitude a little bit? Yeah, damn right. And yet, that's what I do for a living. So I think that for me, you bring that balance of not taking sides that I truly,

Susan Roggendorf: 58:38

truly appreciate. Well, thank you. I try not to I mean, I'm trying to get as much perspective in there. Although I do take sides in the fact that I believe all human beings should have basic human rights we and that includes good health care that's accessible for what's needed that it's not dictated by a fucking insurance company that is not dictated by the government on what you're able to access as a person based on your socio economic level. There's so many things that I do take a site in but the biggest one is that human being should have basic fucking human rights. Beyond that I try to bring other persons who have different perspectives for mine to see what they're thinking and what they're doing

Steve Bisson: 59:16

to I'll tell you why say that's not taking sides just fucking logic if you ask me. That's not taking any sides. It's like I support LGBT I don't think a side there that's just fucking logical to me. You want to help first responders that's just logical to me. There's not there's not a side to be taken. That's why I said you don't take sides.

Susan Roggendorf: 59:36

I think I think that that's I also know that there are persons out there that see us taking sides. I'm fine. Fuck it. I'm taking the sign. I'm taking a side for human beings. There we go.

Steve Bisson: 59:44

Yeah, I feel like I'm going to UU Church suddenly. Tony, if you're listening and that was for you. So anyway, I wanted to take you because it's already been an hour went by. Oh my god. You know, one of the Things that I truly enjoyed, Susan is that we've had a few conversations we've exchanged. It's always a great conversation. I have a couple of ideas that I would love to have you back on at some point because

Susan Roggendorf: 1:00:10

absolutely well, you're gonna become a back on to my podcast, dude, you're not going away that easy.

Steve Bisson: 1:00:14

I'm not believe me, I you tell me the date and time. Probably that'd be kickback from this COVID shit that we'll we'll go from there. And I gotta get that board before we do that. But that's right. But I wanted to thank you so much other than your podcast, how can people reach you or find you?

Susan Roggendorf: 1:00:32

You can always go to my website for my business. It's co felt counseling services.com and cofell is spelled C O FFELT. That is my grandmother's maiden name and that's who I decided to name my business after was to honor her. She was my caregiver and did a lot of good in the world. I wanted to honor her with that. Another way is finding me on Instagram. I've got three accounts. I've got the kobelt counseling one. I've got the swearing therapist, and I've got sucked the rules podcast. And then you can find suck the rules podcast on Spotify, Apple podcasts, Amazon, podcasts, Stitcher. A couple of other ones I can't remember right now. But if I was brain, I Heart

Steve Bisson: 1:01:14

Radio, I'm sure and

Susan Roggendorf: 1:01:16

I think it's out there and I just Google it. You'll find me.

Steve Bisson: 1:01:23

Well, Susan, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. Our conversation today and I'll talk to you soon.

Susan Roggendorf: 1:01:28

Okay, thank you, Steve for having me again. It was wonderful conversation. Well, that

Steve Bisson: 1:01:33

concludes episode 65 of finding your way through therapy. Thank you, Susan Rogan Dorf, great conversation. Hope everyone enjoyed it. And this concludes season five. Now we're going into season six and season six and episode 66. So a lot of continue ality there. But it will be Pat rice and Carrie Keegan. And we are going to have a conversation so continuance of our Converse. Me and Pat actually had a great conversation last season on episode 54. And I think this is going to be a continuation of that conversation because Carrie is joining us. I think that she has written a book which will be awesome, talking about her near death experience her relationship with life in general and the spirituality that goes with that. And of course, Pat always has an opinion and always enjoy that. So looking forward. Please like, subscribe or follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for information, educational, and entertainment purposes. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor or therapist for consultation.