E.68 How Your Breath Can Help Your Mental Health with Courtney Romanowski And Stephanie Simpson

In this episode, we speak to returning guest Stephanie Simpson and a new guest but a great friend of mine, Courtney Romanowski. We discuss a variety of topics including storytelling, as well as the mind-body-spirit connection and how we can use the tools we have at our disposal, including our breath, our body, and our ability to be. There is also an amazing discussion on our narrative and how this effect us in so many ways.

Stephanie Simpson is an Artist, Coach, Facilitator, Speaker, and the author of the “21 Day Stress Management Workbook: A Holistic, Interactive Guide to Re-Defining Your Relationship to Stress.” Drawing on her background in movement, meditation, trauma, and psychology, she partners with people and businesses/organizations to achieve their greatest potential by nurturing the connection between the mind, body, and spirit. Skilled at holding space so that people and businesses can get clear on their purpose and align their purpose with their goals, Stephanie empowers her clients to live courageously and to the fullest by creating communities and workplace cultures that are human centric and trauma informed, fostering and valuing employee wellness and sustainability.

Stephanie can be reached via her website here.

Her Instagram account can be found here and her Facebook account can be accessed here.

Courtney is a Licensed Mental Health Counselor and a Registered Dance Movement Therapist through the American Dance Therapy Association. Over the past 10 years, Courtney has provided individual counseling and group therapy to a diverse population of adults at various levels of care. Her hope is to support her clients by integrating honest, open minded conversations with mind-body awareness and connection. She graduated with her Master's Degree from Lesley University in 2014, served as the President of the New England Chapter of the American Dance Therapy Association 2019-2021, and is certified in Restorative Yoga.

You can find Courtney's website here.

You can find Courtney on Instagram here.

The website mention can be found here.

Transcript

Steve Bisson: 0:03

Well, hi everyone, and welcome to episode 68 of finding your way through therapy. Season Six. I never thought I'd get to Season Two nevermind season six. This also is on youtube i this will be episode 12 on YouTube. So I hope you guys go and see that too. But today, you know, before the interview I was talking to both of them saying that it's weird because one of the guests is someone that works literally next to me in my office, and you guys don't even know who she is. And that's Courtney. And then Stephanie, who's been on episode 57. And you've heard of her, while I know her a little less because she's a little further away. So it's was kind of an ironic type of situation. So just wanted to share that with you guys. But welcome, Courtney and welcome, Stephanie. Thank you. Well, the first thing first, I mean, maybe we can start off with Stephanie. Just going a little bit about yourself. I know people know you from Episode 57. They can go back we had a great conversation, but maybe tell people a little bit about yourself. That's the first time they've heard you.

Stephanie Simpson: 1:06

Yeah, so I'm based in New York City. And I am a consultant, Coach artists, and facilitator. So I work with individuals and companies in creating more trauma informed holistic workplaces. And really through the lens of how are we redefining our relationship with stress in this holistic Mind, Body Spirit way. And so in organizations, a lot of times that looks like how are we training our leaders to be more conscious leaders, with the employees? How are we providing resources for them in a way that is helping them to be their best selves at work with individuals, I work with a lot of people who are in transition, where maybe there's a lot of uncertainty and fear. And so the overwhelming stress is there. And as a coach, like different than therapy, and I'm very clear with this with all my clients, it's about like, where are you now? And where do you want to grow into. And though coaching can be therapeutic, it is not therapy, which is why it's always really important that also if, and myself included, sometimes I've worked with both a coach and a therapist and have those things integrated, which has been really can be really powerful for anybody. And then my I came to all this work through being an artist first and being a dancer, which is actually how I met Courtney many, many, many years ago now.

Steve Bisson: 2:30

Both of you were like 27-28. That's what I thought.

Stephanie Simpson: 2:35

yeah, it's exactly what we do that many years ago.

Courtney Romanowski: 2:38

I just turned 29 actually. So

Steve Bisson: 2:40

Happy belated birthday.

Stephanie Simpson: 2:42

Yeah, so and so that really informs the work I do as well. So really looking at things from a somatic place, understanding the body understanding, like what we're holding in the body, emotionally, patterns, all of that, and how are we really shifting the way we're living into more of alignment. So I always like laugh when I'm thinking about like mind body spirit alignment. I'm also thinking like, oh, as a dancer, like, how are we aligning our bodies for the most effective use? And what's getting in the way? And what habits did we create? You know, I see Courtney, like shaking her head that like, there are times where I would sit down and I'm gonna go to a ballet class, like a foundational ballet class. I'm like, Oh, I was like, thinking a lot of things at the higher levels. And when you go back to basics, you're like, oh, yeah, that's where there's a gap and like my technique, or oh, that's where I'm not quite on my leg. And so you know, thinking about coming back and slowing down. When people do that they start realizing these different things that maybe aren't in alignment and so I help them figure that out and give them more clarity.

Steve Bisson: 3:49

Well,you know, you already answered one of my questions, but you created three more so just for the record,

Courtney Romanowski: 3:54

like making notes of things that I wanted.

Steve Bisson: 3:57

But welcome, Stephanie, of course always happy to see you. And Courtney, since I never see you despite you being right next to me, how about you introduced yourself?

Courtney Romanowski: 4:08

Incredible insn't it! My name is Courtney. I am in Framingham Mass right outside of Boston. Grew up here. Never really left the state, which is fine. Never thought I'd be back living in Framingham. But here I am. And I'm loving it. I am a licensed mental health counselor and a registered dance movement therapist, which I will definitely be sharing more about. Um Let's see what else should I tell you about myself? I guess my approach Stephanie I really appreciated you sharing more about your, your approach and you know, when I when I meet with a prospective client or even, you know, throughout my, my relationship with my current clients, you know, I like to remind them that I'm a human first and a therapist further down the line. Though maybe I sit in the therapists chair And then went to school for it. And my hope is to help them with certain therapeutic things. Like I said, I'm a human first. And I like to bring that to them that we can be humans together. The kindness, Steve, you talk about humor, all of the time, humor, just acknowledging that nobody is expecting superiority or perfection. But just just to be able to be together. It's definitely you talked about like, going to ballet class, the fundamentals. And I, you know, I love that because, and I'll talk more about this a little bit later. But I always come back to you, with each client, like your breath, start with your breath, and go from there. I mean, that's, that's number one. And some clients ask for more, I want more, I want to be doing more and which I appreciate that they have that, that passion to be working on themselves. But let's get to the breadth first and worry about everything else later. So it's my,

Steve Bisson: 6:08

and I appreciate it, Courtney, the reason why I interrupted you is because I think that you do restorative yoga also,

Courtney Romanowski: 6:14

which is about stopping and being in resting. Not about constantly moving from one thing to the next, there's so much that we're actually doing when we're still, which is uncomfortable for a lot of people, because we live in a world of constantly doing, we need to be productive. And actually breathing is the most productive thing that we can, we can do for ourselves, at least a start.

Steve Bisson: 6:43

And I think that you go, I go back to what my spiritual belief system is based on Buddhist principles. And most people who go do some mindfulness or some meditation, they're like, Well, I can't stop my mind. Well, that's exactly the point. You know, you're not a bad meditator, because your mind hasn't stopped. Because that's the point. And it's observing those thoughts. So I just wanted to integrate a little bit of that, too, because it is the mind body spirit stuff.

Courtney Romanowski: 7:08

Yeah, I mean, I have a restorative yoga teacher, and even another yoga teacher who they say the same thing, you know, like, thank your mind for doing its job, because you're supposed to be thinking, and then, you know, come back into feeling what the body is experiencing right now. And then when the thoughts come back, they think your mind again, for doing its job? You know, yeah, we're not supposed to stop necessarily, but the mind body connection, of taking care of one taking care of the other.

Steve Bisson: 7:38

Right, and I mean, on a bigger level, I think we're all interconnected, and something that we tend to forget also, but that's just me. So when I think about all that, how do we get to a point where we do where therapist and coach and a, we work with companies? How do we get there? How do we get to be restorative? Do restorative yoga, do the type of therapy how do we get there in our career, you know, wake up at, you know, I know, you're only in your 20s. But at the end of the day, we I didn't you know, I didn't wake up when they go see, I'm going to be a therapist, it's a good idea. How do we get there? And I'm gonna start with you stuff.

Stephanie Simpson: 8:18

There a really good question, because I've been thinking about that a lot recently, like, you know, how did I get drawn to this? And I really think it came from a place originally, a couple of things come to mind. One, I'm really fascinated by people. And I'm really interested in people and, and you know, how we do the things we do and what makes us do the things we do and stories, right. I think that's where sometimes people are like, wow, you went from, you know, doing dance and musical theater and all this to now coaching. And I'm like, to me, they're almost the same, in the sense that it's storytelling, right? It's storytelling. It's coming together. It's a connection, something that came to mind when Courtney was like, I'm a human first. And can we just be together? Like, just how, how special that is, and how many times people don't get that, right. And, you know, I'm hoping that like, the stigma around going to therapy is shifting over the last few years, though, like just being able to be in a space with somebody. And even group like, I do a lot of group coaching, too. And there's such power and just having an hour, an hour and a half where you're with that group, and you get to share something and realize that you're not alone, and that maybe it's coming out in different ways for different people, though, that being human is we're all having somewhat of a similar experience. So, you know, as a performer of being really interested in those stories, how are we sharing those stories? How is audience members? Are we taking in those stories and how are they affecting us to then like, going into the more therapeutic coaching realm, I think part of that was just me trying to like heal myself and like getting really interested in all these different modalities and then seeing how they've benefited me Yeah, and I love that you brought up breath again, Courtney. And when you said like, come back to the breath, I found myself going. Yeah, let's take another Yeah. Right. Like, like we breathe unconsciously, obviously, so that we can like be alive. So like when we consciously breathe like how that just shifts so much. And it seems so basic. And yet it's the thing that we always forget to do, including myself. And so I think going through all these different modalities for myself and seeing the, the I go back to like, the idea of like, pain is inevitable. But suffering is a choice, like realizing I have more choice and being like, How can I be of service to others? And not sometimes teach it depending on the, the space I'm in, but also just hold that space so people can get to that place themselves? And wouldn't it be wonderful if we all were able to do that? Just how much we're settled, everybody would be. And so yeah, so I think that's how I found my way here. And I'm just really excited and passionate about trying to hold hold more safe spaces, even though I don't totally love that like buzzword, but like, hold those spaces where people feel like they can really share and release, right, like I just got this image of like, just let the like heaviness go?

Steve Bisson: 11:19

Well, I did first thing that came to mind when you said that's the energy stuff and all that it's the synergy another word that I really hate that business use because they use it terribly. But yeah, I get what you're saying about these buzzwords. So it's just, you know, I come back sometimes to a lot of people is like, how do you define it? How do you hold it versus what other people define? Doesn't really matter how other people define it, you can be curious and ask them, but your definitions a lot more important than others. So just the thought

Courtney Romanowski: 11:50

that thought is something that I bring up with my clients, like I can define it a certain way. But I'm wondering what, whatever the emotion is, whatever the thought is, like, how do you define it? What does that mean to you? I think it's a really important question to ask people, because I don't think everybody knows how they define Oh, yeah.

Stephanie Simpson: 12:06

Not totally. I mean, like, even just basic corporate things that I'll do, like, we're create this thing called, like a partnership agreement. And it's like, you know, what do you need in this space in order for you to show up authentically? And what are you willing to give to this space? Because we're going to create a partnership, and you know, throw out words like communication and trust and vulnerability, and then I'll say, great, what does trust look like in practice? Like, how do you know that someone is trusting? And how do you know that you're being trusting and what does vulnerability feel like? And communication? That's a word like everyone, of course, we all want good communication, though? What looks like good communication to me, maybe very different accordion, very different disease. And that in itself, people go, Oh, I don't? I don't know. I haven't thought about that. And it's like, yeah, like, a lot of times we haven't stopped to reflect to be like, what does this feel like, for me? And then I go even further with sometimes you like, and where are you feeling it in your body? Right? Like, or I'll ask somebody, like, how does that make you feel? They're like, I think and I'm like, Oh, yeah. How can we shift that to? I'm feeling this here or there or whatever. Because if we're still thinking, then we're actually not feeling

Steve Bisson: 13:21

and, and not to get too repetitive too early. But again, that's where the breath comes in. Right? I mean, the breath can tell us so much about what what we're actually experiencing. I mean, not only is it a just a good thing to remember to do every so often, but what is your breath telling you right now? Feeling it? Is that a part of how you got to where you're at in your career? Courtney, a lot of the breath stuff a lot of those thoughts or?

Courtney Romanowski: 13:47

No, it's actually no. The the breath stuff is actually has come from more of a personal place and a need that I've realized for myself the past few years, and I just really zoned in on it. I always knew and appreciated the use of the breath, especially with school going to school for dance movement therapy, but so I grew up dancing. started at age three, I went to Emerson College for my BFA in dance, which is where I met Stephanie. I you know, looking back I don't know what I thought I was going to do with Well, I mean, I guess there was the dream of going to New York to be a Rockette. Which I don't need the height requirement but that is a story I don't

Steve Bisson: 14:36

no one knows. No one knows that they can't see it here your 5'8"-5'9" Yeah, sure.

Courtney Romanowski: 14:41

Yeah, 6'4"

Stephanie Simpson: 14:42

I wish

Courtney Romanowski: 14:43

Yeah. And you know, I think there was like I want to work for Disney Of course as a little kid and be like a dancer in the parade or I want to be a New Kids on the Block backup dancer. You know, like there was just or after college. It was going to California at some Point to choreograph and perform and those things never happened, which is fine. I stayed in Massachusetts and I taught even up until about five years ago, I was teaching and I loved it. I started to then get into arts administration, I was working at a theater for a while. So I minored in marketing and Emerson and I really enjoyed that. So I thought I wanted to go more of that routes. It turns out, I didn't want to do that either. So it was actually online looking for a new job one day and this ad for Antioch New England's dance movement therapy program popped up. And I was like, That's it. That's what I had no idea what that meant. I had no idea what the movement therapy was at the time, but I saw those words and my body like literally responded. I was like, that's, that's what I'm supposed to do. So when to Lesley University in Cambridge, I would do it all over again, in a heartbeat. It was difficult and wonderful all at the same time. You know, Stephanie, you, you stole my answer about storytelling. How do you think that speaks to, to the power of dance and movement? Because I think back to what have I always loved about dancing, and obviously, moving my body and the actual dancing has always felt wonderful. I've always loved that. But it was the storytelling that I loved, I'd love to tell the story. I'd love to go to a performance and watch a story being told or find a story, movement if there wasn't an obvious one. And I realized with dance movement therapy, what I get to do is give people space to tell their story, whether they know it or not, our bodies, know our stories. They know every single moment, every single thing that we have ever experienced and have gone through. And I, my hope is that I can just help give people that space to explore their story. tell their story feel heard. I know I can't guarantee that. But that's my hope that people feel like they can tell their story and be well, within their story, whatever it means.

Steve Bisson: 17:22

I really want to jump to something because that storytelling has become a theme here. And what I know that we've talked about this before, I think we mean you Stephanie, we did talk about that informally, obviously me and Courtney are friends, we've talked about this. But sometimes it's the narrative that we create, right? I love storytelling myself, I'm not as much in dance, I watch professional wrestling. And people laugh about that by said, if you really pay attention, there's a storytelling there. That's really fantastic. You don't need the leg wrestling, but I do. But I think it's the narrative that sometimes you get from storytelling of other people. How does the narrative kind of impact how people feel about themselves feel they're in integrity with others, and so on and so forth? And how is that connected to like the mind body connection, Mind Body Spirit connection, whoever wants to go first.

Stephanie Simpson: 18:14

I mean, I'll jump in and say when I did my MFA in dance, my thesis I was really interested in like, why myself wasn't performing to my highest like ability in auditions or onstage. And then I was seeing it with other people, right? And I realized, Hey, I'm not alone, because for the story in my head was like, What's wrong with you that like, you could do this in rehearsal, but you can't do it like on stage or in an audition, and then started to see other people doing it and be like, Oh, I'm not alone. This is a thing, right? And so it was really looking at like how fear gets in the way and the mind body connection of like, what we're telling ourselves, how does that show up in the body and in our actions, and which is funny because it relates so much to like my work and stress, because what starts the stress cycle is fear, right? And so, you know, if we're telling ourselves this story that like, we're not good enough, or we don't deserve it, or they're not going to like me, or any of that, or we have this character that we've created for ourselves, most of the time, not true, especially on the like, more negative side of things, then that's all we're going to see. Right, and then we're going to act accordingly. And so a lot of the work that I do with clients is about getting clear on what is that narrative, you're saying to yourself, and also being okay that, like, you're saying these things to yourself, like for years, I wouldn't tell people that there was so much going on in my head because I thought that I that would literally make me crazy, right like that. They'd be like, Oh, you're crazy. You have thoughts, like all these voices in your head. And then the more I started talking about, it was like, oh, yeah, no, I have that thought too. And I have that person too. And I have that person too. And a fun exercise I do with people is like, let's create this cast for yourself. Like who is this character? Who is this character? Who is this character? And how can He actually love them all. Because there are times where like, the villain needs to come out, right. And then there are times where the like funny sidekick needs to come out. And then there's the time that like, you know, your god Fairy Godmother needs to come out. And then you need to have your 11 o'clock like, solo singing number, you know your impairment number, and it's about creating more awareness of who they are, and who gets to take the spotlight, right. And then you get to choose that as opposed to them, you know, choosing everything. And so I think part of my like, background in the arts, too, is like, how can we play around with these things that sometimes feel so heavy? And be like, Okay, how can you play around? How can we get curious? How can we love all these different parts, because they're all part of you, right? So that then like, what what you do physically, and what's going on in your body now feels it comes from the inside out? Right? And that you then are now shaping your narrative from like, what we say an embodied place, right? That your confidence is also coming from the inside out, as opposed to just always needing validation, which validation is important, external validation is important. But if that's the only way that you're living from, that can get exhausting, right? That's where we're like, just always like, performing. But without that authenticity behind it. I don't even know if that answers your question, but that's where my brain went.

Steve Bisson: 21:21

So well. I think it did answer a lot of the question. I have a little ideas here that I want to throw out. But Courtney, I want to hear you talk more about that and maybe even respond to Stephanie.

Courtney Romanowski: 21:32

Yeah, Stephanie, I wish I could, like record all the thoughts and responses that I have in my brain while you're talking. Because now I'm like, Oh, my God, am I gonna be able to get it all out?

Steve Bisson: 21:39

You guys want me to leave? I'll go get another coffee!

Courtney Romanowski: 21:44

Steve, you're gonna be like an expert on dance and movement by the end of this episode. Which I want to come back.

Steve Bisson: 21:50

You know, I'm very fascinated by that, despite not getting it shows. So that's why I like having a like this. This podcast is being able to not only for me, but really expose people who might feel the same way because again, I the narrative creators all don't ask questions, you're gonna look stupid. But that's a narrative. The reality is, I'm not the only one that feels that way. And I really don't think that everyone knows about it. So you guys obviously are trained in that. So that's why I bring you on. So Courtney, tell me more. Go ahead. Yeah.

Courtney Romanowski: 22:21

Well, Steve, oh, God, what was I gonna say? Oh, god. Um, so when you originally asked the question, see if my my immediate thought was, I was thinking back to my first semester back at Lesley for dance movement therapy, which I do want to come back to and explain to the folks what that actually is. You know, we're I was in a classroom full of mixed expressive arts students. So that's dance, art, music, drama, play. But you could tell who the dance therapy dance movement therapy students were, because during different exercises, and experiential, everybody was performing and trying to be beautiful in their technique, dance. Myself included, which is not what dance movement therapy is about. It's not about technique. It's not about performing. It's not about looking for it can mean there can be performance to it, but not the point of it. And as school progressed, I'm even thinking back to my last semester. And I would find myself in so much stillness, not knowing how to move because the way I knew how to move was through technique and through practice, and through and that was my narrative. I was a dancer. So if I wasn't performing, what was I doing with my body? And there was both fear. And oh my god, who am I? And now there's more curiosity, because now I settled into, like, it's okay, if I'm not the dancer that I thought I was, or was at the time or, like, you know, I can move my body and feel good in it without it being a technique class. But I, you know, I'm recognizing for a lot of people that when we stop and try to connect with our bodies, it's almost this like, Oh, my God, what, what, who am I? What is my body telling me what, what is my narrative? If I stop thinking about it, if I stop living the story that my brain has decided for me, or that I've chosen or that I'm comfortable with, even if it's a sadder story, or there's fear or anger and so I think You know, again, I I like to offer this this time for my clients to become more aware of what's going on in their bodies. They don't have to live there just yet, or they don't have to put it into practice just yet. But what is your brain telling you? And then what is your body telling you? Is there a connection? Is there a disconnection? What, again? What have you chosen? Because you're comfortable with it, even if it's uncomfortable? And why are you choosing that versus what your body may be telling you?

Stephanie Simpson: 25:38

There's so many things in there, Courtney, that I was just like, yeah, like, I was just thinking of two when it's, you know, one of the things I think is so great about dance. Well, first of all, I believe everyone's a dancer. It's like, the first thing we do is like, we move as babies, right? And we

Steve Bisson: 25:57

know, I'm gonna stop you right now. I'm going to challenge that notion. What if I said to you know, I'm not a dancer? You guys are obviously but not me. What would you say to me?

Stephanie Simpson: 26:06

Why not? I would say, how are you defining dance? Like, what does dance actually...

Steve Bisson: 26:12

I'm not in therapy just for the record

Stephanie Simpson: 26:17

Because that because I do I come up with that, or come up against that a lot, especially when I was teaching dance full time, was like my sixth graders like day one. And they were coming into a dance class where I was not going to teach them any choreography. It was fully improvisational play through the elements of dance. And I would say, what really warmed my heart after many years was some of the students would come in, I'd be like, what is dance? And they'd be like, it's, it's expressing yourself through movement. And I was like, Yes, this is exactly what it is, right? And even dancers like, I mean, I work with a lot of dancers, where they're, mentally they're not in a good place, because they've been told what good dance is, right? And they're not good enough, right? Like, their leg isn't high enough. They're not turning enough. They're not skinny enough. They're not tall enough, you know, whatever it is, they're never enough, right? When really, the essence of dance is how are you telling your story? How are you communicating through movement in your body, and what I love that you said, Courtney, and I just like I was like, off, it's so true. It's like getting to a place of stillness, like, seeing someone on stage hold a stillness is one of the most powerful things that you can see when it's done. Like embodied, right. And the same goes in real in like real life. Even though my life I want it to be real life all the time. But as you were talking, I was thinking, Courtney about how even growing up as dancers, like, we're told what to do, a lot of times unless you were fortunate at different times, and thank God I was when I started 11, I started doing more like modern dance and improv, where like, then you had agency to make your own choices. But that was terrifying. Like, it's terrifying to, for someone to say, okay, like, I'm gonna put a music on and you just kind of you do what you want to do. And you're like, wait, what, like, you're not gonna give me an eight count, like what's going on? Right? And how many people have that experience in other ways that they don't realize, right? Like, you get out of college. And yeah, you have some freedoms in college, but you got to take classes, there's a certain amount of credits you have to have, and you got to do this, you got to do that, right? And then you get out of college. And it's like, Alright, go do what you want to do. And people are like, yeah, what, like, I, I've been being told in one way or another what to do my entire life. And then it's like, well, I guess I'm gonna go on to this track, because that's what my parents did, or that's what society tells me to do. And then you just keep doing these things that other people are telling you to do, though, if you do actually stop and breathe and stay silent. And, and. And still, at first, I think it is really overwhelming because it's like, Oh, crap, like, I've got to make this decision, though. Once you become more comfortable with that and figure out your own narrative, it then b goes, Oh, yes, I get to make this own decision, like my own decision. And when that shift happens, and I think it continuously happens, it's so powerful.

Courtney Romanowski: 29:17

Yeah, it's, it's being able to build that trust within our own bodies that know we can we do know, in our bodies, what to do next. You know, and, and but we're not taught how to do that. And we're told to follow that narrative. We're told to follow this timeline. We're told to do the next thing that we're supposed to be doing and your life is supposed to look a certain way.

Steve Bisson: 29:49

And the reason why I want to, I want to ask you a quick question, because for some of us, we don't know what that means. What's an eight count?

Stephanie Simpson: 29:58

So most pop media that most pop music is counted in like four, four ace. And so it's like, you know, we're gonna give you a depending on the one going really in depth here, but like eight different moves that you would do in a sequence and be like, Okay, I'm teaching you this, like your arms gonna go 1234 just the beginning, of course, I'm actually. And so you're being taught what to do at a specific time, right? And so you're just taking that and putting it into your own body, as opposed to being like, Here, go like, here's a concept, move with that concept. And it's like, Wait, well, how do I do that? And then what's great about it, when it's really freeing is that there is no right and there's no wrong.

Steve Bisson: 30:43

Right. And that's why I wanted to kind of like, you know, I think I knew what that meant. And, but I figured that some people might not know and it might be important for them, because Nate count can be a lot more dictatorship, like versus doing what you want. So just want to clarify that.

Courtney Romanowski: 31:01

So again, it's it can be the narrative that you're told the choreography that you're taught, or it can be a counter, doing whatever you want to do, what feels good, but what comes out.

Steve Bisson: 31:15

See, I'm starting to get it.

Courtney Romanowski: 31:17

You're gonna make a dancer out of you yet, Steve.

Steve Bisson: 31:20

Eventually, I just need to get the office next to mine.

Stephanie Simpson: 31:25

But you know, what's funny is like when you said you liked wrestling, I mean, there's so much choreography in that. Like, there has to be. Right, like so. So I think you are deep down, you're, you're gonna let your inner dancer out.

Steve Bisson: 31:42

I coach soccer, that's where I do my dancing. But maybe let you know you, Courtney, you were saying you want to get back a little bit to this. You know, when you when you you talk about dance movement therapy, and Lesley and your experience in that what you wanted to get back to that. So I want to hear more about Yeah, because I don't know, I've never been to Lesley, I know where it is. I know a lot of people went there. But I don't know anything about this.

Courtney Romanowski: 32:05

Yeah, so I actually, um, because I wanted to be clear with what the definition quote unquote, of dance movement therapy is. So again, here's an example of what we're told it is. And then I'll share a little bit more about how I, I've shared a little bit already, but a little bit more of how I think about it and embody it for myself. So I'm, so again, I'm a registered dance movement therapist with the American dance Therapy Association. And so the adta American dance Therapy Association, defines dance movement therapy as the psychotherapeutic use of movement to promote emotional, social, cognitive and physical integration of the individual, for the purpose of improving health and well being. What does that mean? Yes, it is a multiple. And that's, and that's been moved through since I first became a dance movement therapist. And again, probably makes more sense to those of us who are practicing. But again, it's definitely you you noticed this movement is really the first thing that we do as human beings, human beings. It's our first language, you know, our heartbeats, that's movement, we take a breath. That's the movement we reach for. As infants, we reach for our loved ones, or just through the space feed, we roll there's that developmental aspect of movements. And so that's really being that first language that we have to express ourselves. And then thinking to Stephen, something else you said, you know, there's different types of movement. It's not just expressive, which is so important, but it's also developmental, there's functional. And there's another word that I'm forgetting right now. But there's, there's so many different ways that we actually move our body, but we will come back to that later. But the mind body spirit connection that you were talking about earlier, Steve, like what we've been talking about this entire time, how our body really tells us so much, if we can connect it with who we are, spiritually, who we are in our, in our minds and how we relate to one another. So that was a big part of my study. And then I use a lot of dance movement therapy as an assessment tool. More so than as an intervention tool. The I do, do use it with breath and body awareness, restorative yoga, in a way that we can do restorative yoga and then process therapeutically afterwards either what has come up or what what is experienced and Um, but for me to be able to pay attention and notice how somebody is holding their body, how they're moving, you know, are they keeping themselves close? And in? Versus if they're, they're out and about with their gesturing? What does that say about how they connect with themselves with others? And then I use it a lot, actually, with myself, when I'm sitting with a client, you know, what am I noticing in my body, as I'm noticing my client and how they're moving, how they're sitting, what they're talking about, and then to be able to share my experience with them and so many words and see what they connect with? If anything. You know, there's that being aware of countertransference. You know, am I projecting onto them my experience of what they're talking about? Or is there something there that I'm feeling that maybe they haven't let themselves recognize in their bodies just yet? We'll go with that. I do, I do want to say it's funny. When I first introduce myself to someone and say that I'm a registered dance movement therapist, I do tell them that like, we will apply dance movement therapy, if it feels nests, or if it feels like it would be beneficial, if you're interested, doesn't mean we're going to be doing ballet, or preparing to audition for a tech company, you know, but because there's that dance part that people get a little bit nervous about if they don't identify as a dancer. And so I, I tend to say, you know, it's not about the dancing, it's more about just how how we move and how we connect with our body. For some people, it is about dancing, and other people. It's just about movement.

Steve Bisson: 36:51

Because I'm sure that there's someone somewhere who's listening to this and saying, you know, I do my intake with Courtney, is she going to be watching me do my eight count? And what is she going to do? So I appreciate the clarification here.

Courtney Romanowski: 37:03

Yeah, yeah, no. I mean, we can get up and jam if you want to, and put whatever your favorite song is on and dance to it. It's definitely therapeutic. Not necessarily what we'd have to do. I leave it up to each person.

Steve Bisson: 37:26

Good to know, you. Go ahead. No,

Courtney Romanowski: 37:31

no, I was just going to plug the American dance Therapy Association website, it's at ta.org. They have more information about what dance movement therapy is, they have videos of what it could look like everybody tends to use it a little bit differently, or depending on where it's being used for population, it looks different. And then there's also a database, you could find a dance movement therapist near you, if you're interested in learning more and pursuing it as a therapeutic approach.

Steve Bisson: 38:02

I'll definitely put that in the show notes. For people

Courtney Romanowski: 38:06

EDTA.org

Steve Bisson: 38:07

Perfect. Stephanie, do you? Like do when we meet you? Do I have to start like doing some improv in order for you to go home? This guy really needs a lot of coaching

Stephanie Simpson: 38:19

Yes. That's how I start every session off with a new Bert, new client? Um, no, actually. So it's, I love how you talked about it, Courtney, because there's a lot of similarities that I do. Like, I'm not a registered dance movement therapist, though I have a lot of background in like somatic practices, right. So and when we think about, we talked about Cymatics, we're thinking about just the body is a living, breathing thing? And how are we using our body as another way to understand ourselves in the world around us? So you know, I will ask clients at different times, like we do a lot of visualization on sensation, right? So Cymatics is also about like understanding the sensations in the body. So when I when I'll talk about stress, I'll say like, you know, where are you feeling a sensation right now? And then we'll get really curious about it. Like, what color is if it was a shape, what is it and we start creating this sensation as like a physical thing. And then from there being like, when you're, when you're experiencing this sensation, what emotion comes up for you? And then from there, like, what thoughts are coming up for you so that we're asked I'm also getting people to learn that we go straight to the brain a lot of times we're thinking about it right once we feel something but let's slow that process down. So like for myself, like yesterday, I was presenting for a really big new client and I was very overwhelmed for multiple days. And like, I was like, I'm feeling all of these sensations. And I was like, Okay, how would I do this with a client knows Okay, stop and breathe. That's the first thing I would do. Stop and breathe. And I was like, where am I feeling this in my body? And what am I immediately attaching to it? And so immediately I was detaching, like Oh, I'm scared that I'm not going to do well. So it's fear and all that. And then when I got even more quiet, I was like, I'm also really excited about this. And so I was like, Okay, I get to choose, do I want to lean into the fear that might become so overwhelming that I like legit freeze when I get in the room the next day? Or do I want to like put more attention and intention into the excitement part of it? And like, again, I'm going to, I'm going to choose to do that. And then what narrative can I create around the excitement part of it, right? So being able to tap into the body first to be like, here's what I'm experiencing. Here's the emotion I'm coming up. And I think we were talking about this maybe pre thing about, like, just emotions, we can have more than one emotion. At one time, we're complex people, right? So like to be like, Yeah, I'm really nervous and scared. And I'm really excited and proud of myself for like, getting this client, right. And it's okay to feel all of that. And now, which one do I want to feel the most? Right? And then how does that shift the way I'm thinking about myself, as opposed to what we're kind of wired to do, which is like, just think and think, think think and I always say that usually brings us to the downward spiral. Right? And, and then we're catastrophizing, and all of that, as opposed to like, How can I experience and feel? And then bring myself the upward spiral?

Courtney Romanowski: 41:25

embody that pride that you're feeling? Right? There's there's posture, there's openness to that? Yeah.

Steve Bisson: 41:33

And I think I would I would go with, I think it's a great place to go into emotions. Because why are they so damn complicated? I mean, at the end of the day, one of the things that I've started doing recently is I'm an emotional management coach, and when I explain to people is that if what we default to is the emotions that are most comfortable for us, if, for example, sorry to be gender stereotyping, but I'm going there. For males, anger is a lot more accessible than fear. And for some women, sadness is a lot more accessible than fear. Again, fear is one of those common ones that people run away from. And part of what I talk about is that it's not one emotion. You know, I was excited to obviously do this. I've been bugging Courtney for a while to do this. But you know, I was wanting to make sure that I integrate everything, and I don't make it about me, because this is about you guys. And so I had some fears around that. And, you know, but I can't tell you how happy you know, Steph, I don't really know you. But I felt our connection when we met. So I'm so happy to see and I'm happy to see. But it's so damn complex, because I had like four emotions and about 10 seconds. How do we help people kind of like make sense of those emotions? Because that's what I think is the real issue, not only with dance and movement, and everything else, but just in general, because I think that that's part

Stephanie Simpson: 42:52

of it. I might have said this last time, sorry, courtyard. I was just gonna say, then you can go I might have said this last time, but I love thinking about emotions are just energy in motion. Right? And so how can we continue to have the energy going? And how can we acknowledge all of what we're feeling? And sometimes I'll say, like, okay, like, this movement comes in, I'll be like, Great, let's shake it out, you know? Or, like, if you had to, like, create a shape for that emotion, what would that be? And what would this be? And what would this be, and which one feels I don't even want to use the word free, because sometimes we don't need to feel free. Sometimes we want to feel like cocooned and like, safe and taken care of. And it's like, great, what does that feel like? How can you do that? And like, what would you do with your body in that way? Um, I just want to say that but Courtney, go for it.

Courtney Romanowski: 43:40

Yeah, no, no. I think for me, in my practice, there's that education piece, first of all the different emotions that are outfit out there. Right. Like you said, Steve, we tend to go for the ones that were comfortable with. And I think not only are we comfortable experiencing, but are we that we know of? You know, like, I hear the same ones over and over again, and no judgment because I named them too, but I'm sad. I'm scared. I'm angry. I'm tired. But you know, like, and I don't hear the more specifics of okay, but what is that? What's the other emotion? What's the deeper emotion that's involved in that? And then for me, it's exploring. So when have you felt that way before? What's your history? What's your narrative of that emotion in your life in and what do you need? Now when you sit with that, as uncomfortable as that may be, and I've done a lot of explaining lately, if you're going to feel uncomfortable, you need I think you need to feel uncomfortable. There's real there's real importance and feeling uncomfortable with it. What do you need in that discomfort? And then there's a whole other education piece of like what your needs can be, and how to attain them. I don't even know if that answers your question, Steve.

Stephanie Simpson: 45:09

But yeah, I love that you said that, Courtney, because it is so true that, you know, so having done a lot in the education system, you know, they've social emotional learning, right, which I feel like all learning should be social emotional learning, but we had to, like, create a whole name for it and be like, we need to integrate. Like, it should already be integrated. But short, like, if that's how we're gonna get it, yeah, I'm like, let's get it done that way. But being able to name emotions, right then and there is a it's an intelligence, right? It's an intelligence that we aren't really, you know, depending on what type of family and community you grew up in, like, that was not taught. Right. And, and so you're, it's like, where are we getting that from? Because like I just said, not always in school, either. Right? Like, and that some emotions were good. And some emotions were bad. And I like to share with everybody that like, emotions are neither good or bad. Like, there are, are you using them in a way that's helping you to move forward, right? Like, there are times where anger is very necessary, right. And like, you need to get angry, though, if you're always getting angry, that might not be helping you to move forward. There are times where like, being sad is totally necessary. And if you don't allow yourself to be sad, you might not be able to move through whatever it is that you're like grief, right? Like, if you're not allowing yourself to be sad, when sadness comes up in grief, like, it's just going to continue to feel heavy. The opposite is the same. Like when people like toxic positivity, like it, just like, when some people are like, oh, like positive psychology when it first came out, and like, I do a lot of work in that everyone's like, Oh, so you're just like, happy and positive all the time? Like, no, the exact opposite of what they're saying. They're saying, like, how are you naming your emotions? Right? How are you not just numbing out right? Like, and we all have our emotion we go to that helps us to numb out right. And so some people, it's like, Well, I'm just always going to think, happy thoughts and be on the bright side. And it's like, well, that's not actually going to help you all the time. Sometimes you do need to be upset and angry. And so it's about again, also, where are we feeling it in our body, being able to name it, and, and when we can name something, we can then work with it in a different way. And so I love that you say like, I start with education first, because we just so many people out there have just not been educated and that's okay. And like, and so and the more that they get curious about it, and I love that you said okay, now what's under that? And now what's under that? Because we do we have like, I mean, I love the movie Inside Out, but like, you know, we have those four or five main emotions. And it's like, yeah, and then there's something under all of that too. And let's go there.

Courtney Romanowski: 47:55

This, there's a whole different emotion mills out there. But it's come in very handy. The past couple of years of educating people that like there's, there's you can get more specific. I have gotten into that, or I tried to be mindful. So many of my friends or family members have little ones now. And instead of like, Oh, do you feel sad? Or oh, you must be so happy. Is it asking them? You know, oh, how are you feeling? Like, what is that? What do you what do you experience? Like not in those words, but like, instead of telling them how they feel, you know? And like you said definitely there's this judgment of good emotions, bad emotions, and if I'm feeling the bad ones, I need to stop feeling those or there's something wrong with me for feeling those notes. I mean, yeah, you should be feeling about, you know, if if, if something has happened that has caused us feeling also you're allowed to feel whatever you're feeling, there's, there's no right or wrong just, but to actually sit with them. Sit with the feelings, and then we express them in a healthy way and cope with them in a healthy way or feed them or just take care of ourselves in a healthy way. Again, it's those parts were not taught. You know, it's just be happy be okay. And everything else is wrong.

Steve Bisson: 49:19

Well, if you want to know how toxic positivity can screw you up, go watch The Lego Movie and there's a song called Everything is awesome. You know, for me, that's what I tell people like yeah, you don't believe in toxic positivity and play, I'll send you a video. And I think that one of the things that I would also give a lot of credit to both of you and I'm happy you put that on the table is that whole education piece, you know, as therapists were supposed to do interventions and this and that well to me, I don't care if any insurance companies are listening. You need to you need to educate your clients as to what it is you know, I did anger management when I worked at my was my first job Oops that I ran when I got my license. And it was about anger management. And my first question is what's anger? And there was in most people had a negative view of anger and and like anger is not good or bad. I mean, you need anger here and there. It's what you do with that anger, that's going to be key, and how often are you going to tap it in because you're afraid of using other emotions? So I think that there's a lot of truth of the education we have to do in order to get people there. And the other thing that I really want to get back to is I think we talked about it last time and stuff. But I want your opinion to Courtney, is that and I think that this prior to recording, how do we get people to start thinking about human being versus human doing? Because I think that sometimes our emotions are attached to what we accomplish, instead of who we are. Whoever wants to go first.

Courtney Romanowski: 50:54

Forget who I was talking to the other day, but the questions? And Stephanie, maybe you brought this up in the last episode? Or if not, I'm creating a scene in my head. Of what's your name? And what do you do? You know, that's the that's the question of who you are is based on what do you do with your life? And even you're trying to catch up with friends. So what have you been up to? may appreciate that, right. You're interested in my life, you want to know how I've been spending my time, but like, maybe I haven't been doing anything. And maybe I'm okay with that. Just as much I love that you

Stephanie Simpson: 51:35

brought that up, Courtney, because when I you know, we're recording this back to school time, right. And a lot of people have been going back to school recently. And one of the things that I always gave me a lot of anxiety as a teacher, going back to school was the question that you were gonna get from every single person you saw, Oh, my gosh, how are you? How was your summer? Where did you go? What did you do? And it was like, Well, I didn't go anywhere. I stayed in my apartment, blah, blah. And it's like, oh, and it's like, well, now you're making an assumption that like, I wasn't happy doing that. And I remember having I remember having that exact conversation a couple years ago, and realizing and being like, I'm not gonna be like, yeah, when here I did this. It was great. But I'm literally going to say what I felt and it was like, Yeah, you know, I mean, I hung out in my apartment a lot. And I did a lot of nothing. And then it was like, Oh, are you okay? It was like, yeah, no, that was that was fine. Like, and I could see that they were uncomfortable, right. And so, you know, going back, Steven, you're saying human beings and human doings. It's almost like, we have, like I say this, it's coming out like just word vomit right now, but like, we are so uncomfortable being a human ourselves, that sometimes it's that because of that, it's then hard to be a human with somebody else. Right. And like, I almost feel like we're designed as humans to like, make, like, caretake all the time, because we're uncomfortable. And I very much can visualize the person I was having this conversation with. And she got really uncomfortable. Because it was like, Oh, wait, I wasn't expecting someone to turn around and not just list off all the places they went in to say like, oh, the summer was great and fantastic. And it was like, Oh, crap. Like, we actually have to have a real conversation right now. I'm not prepared. Right? And it was, and I just, it came a little experiment for myself, because I was like, Oh, this is this is the reaction I'm getting from everybody. And part of that is, I think, also not being comfortable ourselves with being like, well, I didn't do anything. And is that okay? Because then there's that kind of self shame, right? Like I and then I have to say something that seems cool and good, you know, which is a lot of pressure for us to have to do all over and over and over again, which leads to the burnout that everyone is feeling in one way or another. So I don't know if any of that made sense. I also just want to say, Steve, that I love that phrase of human beings, not human doings. And I almost in every workshop I've done since our first conversation. I say, one of my friends, one of my therapist friends always says and I credit you for it. And then every time I say it, everybody in the room goes, Huh? Yeah, and it gives them a little pause, which I think is beautiful and wonderful. I think you need to make T shirts

Steve Bisson: 54:30

in production right now as we speak, they just made a phone call. But do appreciate that but you know, it's not mine. I got it from somewhere else. And I think that you know, I go back to a friend of mine who says there's only really three original ideas in the world we just recycle them differently. But as we approach already an hour that's how fast this goes. First of all, I I'm going to have to have you guys back again, because I think that I wrote like there's one tooth there's like seven questions, I started off with three of them I haven't touched. And then I got four more questions that I created on the side. So we're gonna have to do this again. But I want to, I just want to talk about a couple of things and touch base on, you know, I like the we live a motion to explain to people how, and if you've never seen it, you I can maybe link it in my, in the podcast notes. But ultimately, that's how I expand the emotional tree for people because, you know, we go to basic emotions, and that's okay. And those are the ones from inside out. But for me, it's so much more expensive, because you said tired, not really well, not tired is a part of an emotion. You know, like, you know, the fact is, you know, yesterday, my youngest daughter was sick, and I was up with her most of the night. And then I had to go coach soccer, see clients, run around, get into all the I was tired. And people like, oh, that's your body? Well, that's also how I felt. And if you say to yourself, you're tired, it does affect you. So it's not one of those core motions. So I wanted to attach go there. I talked about movement to in a different way. And I think that Gestalt therapy is probably one of those things that I never thought that a I would talk about in therapy or on this podcast. But Gestalt is a lot about movement, and a lot of the stuff that you got to do. So I think that there's so much more to value from this not loved enough technique of, of therapy. And finally, you know, you talked about getting into the deeper emotion. When you talk to friends, whether you've been through you know, I'm I'm from Montreal, live here now. And people like how is it live in Montreal, similar. And people expect, I guess, some expanded quite answer. And I'm like, kind of the same as spoken French, not in English. And I think that that's what I remind people is that are where we are today, or wherever we are, has nothing to do like where you've been or where you're going to go where your vacation is going to be in, you're going to retire Hawaii, or Australia, or Massachusetts or New York. It has to do with who you are today. And I think that you know, bringing back again, a little bit of the Mind Body Spirit connection, I go back to, you know, Buddhist principles. You know, I only have this moment, something can happen tomorrow, something can happen next month, next year, whatever the case may be, all I have is today, and I only have Steph and Courtney in front of me. And living those moments, instead of trying to live the future or the past. So just want to throw a couple of those things. I don't know if you had any feedback on that.

Courtney Romanowski: 57:31

My immediate thought was, and again, I feel like I'm just repeating myself over and over again. But like we can't breathe for the future. We can't breathe for the past or breath is right now it's the most present thing that we can do. So like, how great to have that available to us to really bring us right here to what matters, what we can do.

Stephanie Simpson: 57:53

Yeah, and I'll just add to that. That's why the body is so important to right, our body can't go into the future and our body can't go to the past. It's right here. So, you know, when people talk about grounding and centering, I'm like, your breath helps you to get centered. Your body helps you to get grounded and like and be here in this moment. And if you are here in this moment. That's all weekend. That's the ba i That's the BA

Courtney Romanowski: 58:19

and I just you know, you helped me remember this point that I wanted to bring up that stillness doesn't have to necessarily mean actually sitting still. Right? But it's it's the the rest from whatever productivity we've been trying to do. Right? So if going for a walk is your stillness, that embrace that and embody that. If sitting on the couch for an hour, is what you need to do to be still than do that. You know, it's it's not about being stuck. But it's about being present.

Steve Bisson: 58:53

stillness of the mind is as important as stillness of the body. Yeah, well, Courtney, yes, you're the new remember so far? How do people reach you? How do people find you?

Courtney Romanowski: 59:09

Yes, so I have a website, the new direction therapy.com. I also have email with all of the letters of my name. Courtney Romanovsky lmhc@gmail.com. I'm on Instagram as well. So many letters to my name at Courtney underscore Romanovsky, underscore lmhc underscore rd Mt. I'm sure Steve will link all of it so that nobody hasn't figured out how to spell it all. But yeah, I'm on the gram on the website, and I'm on email.

Steve Bisson: 59:46

And people can use your newsletter also. Right? They can get into this.

Courtney Romanowski: 59:50

Yep. On my website. I have a link to my newsletter. I send out a monthly newsletter with local resources, a way to take a moment for yourself Just any any updates or events or news that I have to share with, with everybody so you can read it, you can sign up for it on my website. And it's a good way to stay in touch.

Steve Bisson: 1:00:13

Thank you and Stephanie, how do we reach you?

Stephanie Simpson: 1:00:16

I also the website, it's Stephanie dash simpson.com And then I'm on LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook at Stephanie Simpson coaching. This all one word, I believe on all three of those platforms.

Steve Bisson: 1:00:32

I'll link those and I do I do know that it is because I've been on your website and I'm not saying this to be nice to both of you. But I do read your newsletter, Courtney. That's why I thought it was so important to put that in. And Stephanie I've been to your website there's a lot of ton of ton of great information there. I'm not just saying that because you're here you know, me enough, Courtney, that I don't really lie about stuff. So just wanted to make sure and yes, you I hope you're okay with me re inviting you sometime in season seven,

Unknown: 1:01:01

I guess. Yeah.

Stephanie Simpson: 1:01:02

So congrats on all those seasons. That's

Courtney Romanowski: 1:01:05

I know, man right there in the coaching.

Steve Bisson: 1:01:09

Yeah, thank you. And you know, it's a it's a cheat. It's just like, you know, Dancing with the Stars season 27 But they've only been around 15 years. It's just like I seasons like, spring, summer. But it looks good, though. But thank you very much, guys, and we'll definitely talk next season.

Courtney Romanowski: 1:01:26

Thank you.

Stephanie Simpson: 1:01:27

Awesome.