E.97 Love, Courage, Selflessness In The Face Of Tragedy With Pavel Ythjall

In this episode, we speak to Pavel Ythjall. His story brings you through a slew of emotions, from sadness, to anger, to surprise, to hope, and everywhere in between. His emotional story was so awe-inspiring, it brought tears to my eyes.

A tragic accident on the way to a Christmas party changed Pavel and Kat's lives forever. After just a year of marriage, Pavel found himself staring into the eyes of a neurosurgeon who told him point-blank: “Your wife will be paralyzed, neck down, for life.” At the time, Pavel had a broken neck too. His vertebrae were supported by a halo screwed directly into his skull.

He shares his story, pre- and post-accident, as well as his wife's road to recovery.

His book can be found here

The documentary can be found here

Transcript

Outro: 0:02

Hi and welcome to finding your way through therapy. The goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy and the wide array of conversations you can have in and about therapy. Through personal experiences, guests will talk about therapy, their experiences with it, and how psychology and therapy are present in many places in their lives. With lots of authenticity and a touch of humor. Here is your host, Steve Bisson.

Steve Bisson: 0:33

Thank you. And I really need to find a catchphrase here, but I don't have one yet. So, welcome to episode 97 of finding your way through therapy. If you haven't listened episode 96 yet, please go and listen, because it's an update on the flight that I had in March and a couple of things that happened and how I'm feeling about it. It came from the heart so I hope you do enjoy it. But episode 97 will be with a new guest that I've never had. prevail. It y'all. I hope I get it right. It's it y'all are it Yeah, well, I hope I get it right. But we will know from the interview. Pawel was referred to me from the site craft network. Lisa mustard in particular had spoken highly of him. I did listen to him on there and also Gordon brewers episode. So please go out and check that out if you want to. But I think my interview is also very good. Pawel is someone who after a year of marriage, he found himself staring at the eyes of a neurosurgeon who told him point blank, your wife will be paralyzed from neck down for the life. Obviously, there's an incident that occurred at the type of l had also broken his neck. His vertebrae were supported by a halo screwed directly into his skull. It was a tragic accident that happened on a cold December while cold for California night. And that changed his life forever. But I want him to say the story. So here is Pawel. Well, hi, everyone, and welcome to episode 97 of finding your way through therapy. It's also on YouTube, you can go check it out. But today I have a guest that was recommended to me by, among other people, Lisa mustard, Gordon Brewer, I heard both interviews. I'll have an announcement very soon in regards to all that, but I'm just going to keep that for now. But I heard a story. I'm like, I got to have him on just an amazing story. And I'm not trying to plug anything else but a great human being here. And a guy who's been through the trials and tribulations. And for me, part of finding your way through therapy sometimes is exactly that talking about our trials and tribulations. So I want to pronounce his name right. So I'm going to do my best of L at y'all.

Pavel Ythjall: 2:39

Sounds good. Sounds good.

Steve Bisson: 2:41

I'm trying to do it. Because you know, as a fellow immigrant from Canada, and people butchering my last name, I want to make sure I don't butcher your last name. But Hi, Val, welcome to finding your way through therapy.

Pavel Ythjall: 2:51

Thank you so much, Steve. I really, really appreciate it. And thank you so much for having me on.

Steve Bisson: 2:57

Your story is an amazing one. I like I said, I've listened to it on about three podcasts. I mentioned those two for a specific reason. We'll you'll figure it out next week, guys. But I would like you to introduce yourself because I think it's not only your story, but as a human being. You're just a remarkable human being. So I would love you to introduce yourself to my audience.

Pavel Ythjall: 3:16

Thank you, Steve. Well, as you I'm a fellow immigrant, so I am from Sweden. And I was into photography and always dreamt of Hollywood always dreamed of coming American and make it big literally fought hard and a blood heart and I came over to America. And I actually did make it so I didn't make it big and I was in my prime I was shooting for AMI for flex Muscle Fitness horse all the big muscle magazines. making good money meeting the right people having a lot of fun driving a Range Rover having my my Rolex watch. Cat was an immigrant from Belize. So my wife, she grew up in Belize on a really, really harsh circumstances. She was raped multiple times. By her mom's boyfriends. She got adopted to me she goes she was raped by her adoptive family. She came back to Belize. Long story short, she ended up in American Air Force. She worked herself up to be a major. So she started in a hut in Belize and literally worked herself up to be a major in the in the American Air Force. So she was on top of her world. She was also a throw athlete. So she was swimming. She was cycling. She was biking semester in Century bike rides, just like a top performer, athletic and intellectual. So we were both on the top of the world. All we had was this enormous emptiness inside like I was had everything right all the material things I had to face him I had them all from people but I just felt so empty. Like I had this longing and she felt the same. And what really made us glued together was this longing for for a home for safety like we I came from sort of a broken home and Her background was was terrible, right? So we just, I guess we put all our efforts into making ourselves successful and hoping that Dow would in some some way protect us, but it wasn't doing anything for us. So long story short, we met at a fitness party on a rooftop. And immediately like we found each other like that first night she sat on my lap and I, I remember all I did was caressing her hair. I didn't try to kiss her didn't try to grow up her didn't just you sat on my lap, and I just, I just I caressed her hair. And she said, that's what got her it was just the most beautiful thing. And we immediately found a home. First for a year and a half. We they become a couple, we get married, we bring all our family, all our friends to Belize, or like a destination wedding, we spend hundreds of 1000s of dollars because we have it, we're successful. It's a beautiful event. And now we have everything. We have the money, we have the fame, we have the all we have the home, we have the security, like, Well, life is perfect, perfect. And then one one night, seven years ago in December, we're going to Laguna Beach, friends Christmas party. And we were in my Range Rover, a big sturdy car. We're driving up up on the 405, which is an infamous highway here in Los Angeles with six six lanes. We're driving and my wife is switching over to put on some Christmas tunes just to make it a festive drive there. And something says and my car, just start swerving. And it just sort of swerving to the right. So what I think happened is that, you know, a tire blew, it's worse, it hits one of them big street signs, it says Laguna Beach hits it, the car starts flipping so it rolls four times. I remember, the last thing I remember was my head went like this into the windshield. And I remember thinking this is going to hurt. And that's when I broke my neck. After a little while when the dust settles, we wake up. I have a broken neck, but I don't know that. And my wife says, Uh, well go get help. I'm broken arms. But she hadn't broken her arm, she had broken her neck instantly on impact. But since she couldn't move, she thought she had broken her arm. So that's the short short story in terms of how we were successful how we met and how it all came apart?

Steve Bisson: 7:32

Well, that's one of the things I'll correct you and maybe I'm too much of a therapist here. So you can stop me, you're still successful. So I just want to make sure I said that. Because that's exactly what I would say to any human being or your success didn't go away. However, a lot of challenges, obviously right after that. Can you describe a little more about all that? Because that's, you know, I was listening. I heard this story four times now. And every time I go home, and you heard me, and every time I hear it's that way. So all the challenges everything else that goes with that. Can you tell me more about that

Pavel Ythjall: 8:04

to make. I'll pick select pieces here, I crawled out of the car and actually fell on my head and I should have died right then and there. But somehow the adrenaline just kept me going. What I found out later was that my neck was broken and all the ligaments were off. So my head was just like a bobble head was just been attaches but a little a little a little a little ligament. I couldn't find my phone. And I didn't understand what a phone looked like. I screamed to my wife. I said I don't I can't find my phone. And I didn't. I was just it was just a blur. It was just like in those war movies. When the camera goes like this and everything is blurry. It was exactly the same feeling. And I felt myself dying. I knew, like you know, and I don't know how to describe it. But you know, when you're about to die, it's just It's trust me on it. So I knew time was precious. And cat, who was an Air Force Major kept her cool and said Pawel, go get help, as well. Go get help. And I walked out on the six lane highway, waving my hands and no one stopped. And at that point, I just chose to die for cat. So instead of walking on the side, I walk out on the highway on the first lane, and peep and cars were swerving around me but no one stopped. I walk back on the side of the road. And a vagabond came and approached me. He said Do you need help? I said yes call 911 I don't know if that Vagabond was even close to the homeless person or if it was the so called third person I've read about in therapy, therapeutic events that sort of appears when you're super stressed. Or if it was a divine intervention. Maybe it was all three. But shortly thereafter, I heard the sirens and were shuffled into the ambulance. They had to use sauce and stuff to get crack cat out but and then we came into the The emergency room. I want to mention, the one most important moment when I was in the emergency room was they wheeled me in and I saw a cat in the background. And Dr. Ferran er, Nurse Arjun bent her head over me. So I'm laying down and she comes over me and just said, wife's going to be paralyzed for life. Stay strong, firm, and that her smoothing that on me saved me. I didn't have time to feel sorry for myself, because God knows I felt sorry for myself, because I saw all my dreams fade away, like my photo, photography, career, my film career, all that is well gone. So I didn't have time to feel sorry for myself, I only had time to gain strength for my wife. So from that moment on, I repeated, I have to be strong for a kid. I have to be strong for cat for three days and three nights and never stopped. Never is kept on repeating like David Goggins totally crazy. But that just I think that just programmed me to be strong, and I did heal up in record time. So that's the start of the event. Well,

Steve Bisson: 11:09

you talked about, was it a vagabond? Was it a homeless person was at a third part. I've heard that I've had another guest on who had a near death experience twice than another person who had two near death experiences. It's not uncommon to have that when you have a near death experience. And it's hard to put in words, I think that that's the hard part is that most people don't get it. And I personally will tell you what I said, though, I don't want to get it in the sense that I want to understand you, but I just I don't want to know what it exactly what it feels like. Because that's not something I want to live through. So I give you a lot of credit going through that. When you are lying there with a broken neck. And you're thinking about I gotta be strong. I gotta be strong for cat. I gotta be strong for cat. Is it only for her? Were you able to do it for yourself? Also?

Pavel Ythjall: 12:02

No, at that point is only love Steve. It's like I here's the real truth is, I thought, still that she had broken her arms. Like before the doctor came up to me. So I thought everything will be cool. I can move my arms and legs. I know a broken neck, but we'll be fine. Like, you know, in some sense, we will be fine. But then when she came up to me and said, You're here, your wife's can be paralyzed neck down for life. This is based on what I've seen, based on my experience. That's in then it was just love. It was like, damn, I have to be strong for her because no one deserves that. But it's a testament to her. It's a testament to how much she improved me as a human being because she made me adventurous. She got me a home, she made me feel safe. And that's why English word is recalled. Reciprocals Yes, yeah. It was just the right thing to do. Like it was, that was the thing to do, because I owed her. Like, she had made me a better person before. And I owed her that. And I would owe that to any human being, but especially my wife.

Steve Bisson: 13:06

Wow. I don't think everyone has that strength though. Pawel, I gotta be honest with you.

Pavel Ythjall: 13:10

Well, not everyone has cat as their wife.

Steve Bisson: 13:14

Well, maybe it'd be interesting to he told me more about cat because she sounds like a incredible human being. And again, for me your her success of surviving everything she went through in Belize and where she is today, to me, she's still successful. I know that people will not necessarily agree with me. I don't care if people agree with me. Can you tell me more about kava, because I want to hear more about you. But now like you made me intrigued about Kenneth,

Pavel Ythjall: 13:39

though, thank you for asking. I'll cut to the end right now first, and I'll go back. She is currently working as an exec for Space Force. So she's full time working for Space Force. She works for general and she take cares of all her meetings, and all of her team's meetings, and she is an active part of that team. So she does that serving our country. still serving our country. Yes. Wow. Yeah.

Steve Bisson: 14:05

Yeah. Well, now I know she doesn't know me, but I thank her for her service. I don't wait till Veterans Day to say that I said every time I can. So thank you, teller. Thank you for your service. I appreciate it.

Pavel Ythjall: 14:16

I will Steve thank you. Just sits with a with a stick in her mouth, which is sort of like a pen but and then that's, that's her one finger as we call it. And she has a government computer with a VPN and all that security stuff. She has iPad also government and that she has her phone on with her stick in her voice. She manages this team. And this is a team that's based in America in Great Britain, as you know, we have a war we but we're involved in a war in Ukraine. And she handles all that with her stick in her voice, which is pretty impressive. And she's also educating herself to therapists so she's doing her practicums to be a family therapist. So that's how impressive she is. And going back act. She when she grew up, she grew up in a family with with two other siblings and her mom had to work really hard just to make a living and her mom often beat her almost get beaten to death. And as I told her, she was raped multiple times by multiple perpetrators. So I can only guess how worthless she felt and how little she felt. And I know she's told me that everything I ever got was from tourists. Tourists felt so sorry for me that they gave me stuff. So that's how I became her. That's her words. That's how I became a giving person. Like I learned the value of giving from tourists in Belize. 40 years ago, somehow, she connected the giving with connections, connections with people because that's what she's so good at she so she has an enormous social network. And that's what she gave me. She gave me the value of seeing people because I was this typical, typical a type personality come from Sweden to Hollywood doing really well. And treating people kindly, but I wasn't connecting with them. I was just, I wasn't using them or anything. But I wasn't connecting. There was no real deep connection at all. Not like we're having here. Right? So but she taught me to see people she told me Pawel asked him what they're doing. asked him what other jobs asked him or two days as to talk to them. That's why I told myself I have to be strong for cat because that is life. Like that is the only thing that fucking matters. Now. It's the connections with people. The rest is just bullshit. It just took an accident for me to realize.

Steve Bisson: 16:36

So yeah. Well, I don't think just an accident. But I think that what you described as your emptiness. You got that with cat I'm sure what you connected with her. I think that what I remind myself that this is the one thing I'm happy about in my life is that, you know, on my deathbed, you most people in their deathbed, I wish I was closer to my family. I was I wish I gave more I wish I did. I will have that regret as a therapist. And to me, that's something that I call it a also my Buddhist principles, right? Because that really is another guiding force in my life. Do you have any guiding forces other than connectedness for you because I think that's important. Sweden is a great country. My experience with Swedish people is sometimes they can be cold towards each other at times. And if I'm, if I'm crossing a line here, you tell me to shut up and I'm fine with that. But I feel like I my experience with Swedish people has been, it's fairly cold but in a family, they're okay. But outside the family, it's kind of a cold relationship. Overall. I don't even remember seeing a BBC special on it.

Pavel Ythjall: 17:42

Now you're still you're you're absolutely right. And it's it's one of the reasons why I got together with Kat who's a with some families, let them Central American woman, sweet and it's very cold. It's literally cold. It's an eight, nine times nine months of the year. It's rainy and dark and the winters Get New York cold and we're by the water. So there's like an icy cold breeze. So we spend a lot of time inside. But we don't we don't have big families. Either. We have one or two kids. So we're very efficient, like the Germans. We do well, we're a type personalities. But yeah, we're not a warm species. That's the wrong word. But yes, we are not warm. So maybe your husband we call it culture. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's very true. That's very true. And I suspect that's one of the reasons why I was drawn to, to cat who's Latin America, Central America, they spend a lot of time outside. It's been a lot of time together. They're big families. They greet each other with a different kind of empathy and and overall warmness. Yeah, yeah. So I forgot the questions, David. But

Steve Bisson: 18:45

that's fine. Other ways to connect with connect with people. I think that for me, I look at my spiritual life as one of my greatest assets. And when you're young identify as someone who practices Buddhist principles. And I tell people you know, what's great about a Buddhist is that he can go into a temple, he can go into a church, you go to a synagogue, and he feels at home everywhere, because he accepts people for who they are. Instead of trying to, quote convert, no one ever converted me. And I will never convert a human being in my life. But I find that to be one of my strengths in my life, on a personal level and in the therapeutic level. So I don't know if you had other strengths that especially help with cat who's, you know, again, I look at her as a great human being. But I also think that there's got to be other stuff that kept you going because it's not an easy task even for you.

Pavel Ythjall: 19:32

I gotta tell you, so the guiding principle for me and it's gonna sound cliche is love. It really is love. And it was cat that kept me going the love, love for cat and I know people sometimes have a problem believing it. And I think that sometimes goes back to themselves. And I'd like to prove that by saying that, for instance, my mom, my family did want didn't want any part of her accident and her cats family had obstacles and they had been We're not involved in the aftermath of our accident either. So it was just cat and I. And my mom made all sorts of excuses not to come over and help. Because for my sister too, and it took my mom six years to finally write an email and say, it was the biggest mistake of my life that I never came over helped. So yeah, I started with law. But for me, the driving force is literally with cat, it was love. My driving force, just for living, is just living in the moment. And I've been this close to death, actually, two times two, and I can tell you about my stroke afterwards. And when I was about to die, it was just black steam. It wasn't. I'm not, this was just my experience. But for me, it was just blackness and regrets. It was just regret. And I'll tell you, man, and I get goose bumps, that regret is the worst feeling in the world. And as you said, but your own or you approach the world you don't want and have any regrets. And that is the best way to treat it. Because those minutes right before you think you'll die, those that's a lifetime. It's a lifetime. And it's just, yeah, it's so I love now as if everyday was the last one I really do.

Steve Bisson: 21:20

That's good. And I think that that's why like, I love the the word love is so important. I agree with you wholeheartedly. And when people say, you know, it's cliche, or what does that mean, or whatever. And I don't know if I believe in that. And then like, I didn't ask you to believe in Santa Claus. I asked you to believe in love. And if you said the goosebumps, I had a similar feeling when you said that I had a like a lot of like, crash when you said about your stroke. You can't touch it. But that's love. And I know that, you know, so I'm going to be culturally inappropriate here. But Americans are so fucking scared of the word love. Yeah, you know, I don't have a problem saying I love you to you. Because I'm French. There's no actual word for like, when you say I like someone, there's no such thing in French. So for me, you love what you don't there's no middle ground. Really? In regards to that night. I don't think that I maybe I'm not close to anyone. But I don't hate people I love because that's all we have.

Pavel Ythjall: 22:14

Well, I mean, let me like, love. I call everyone a brother right now, I think I called you a brother when we conversed, and I don't even know you. But that's how I choose to see the world, right? I choose to see you as a brother. And when it comes to the Air Force, or the military or the Air Force in particular, they have a thing called a wingman. So every when you're in the Air Force you that you have your team and they called your wingman, and they're supposed to help you if anything happens, and God knows they helped cat like, they were there. And they're still there for us. Like we can call up any general or anyone we want. And they'll help us and it's a lifetime commitment. And it's real. I mean, there's a reason why why people are in awe of the military. That's one of the reasons there's a strong strong brotherhood. And what if that if what is that if not love, I mean, you can, can change the word, but it's the same thing. Like it's the, it's what you do. I'm a big believer in do or you can call it what you want. But you are what you do. What you say, doesn't really matter for me. But military people, personnel, contractors, they do and they prove it by their doing. So

Steve Bisson: 23:20

I was wondering about your military background when you came on, because you were like five minutes early. And I always remember my military personnel that told me three minutes early is just on time and on time is late. And they have that mentality for their brotherhood or sisterhood constantly. And I truly respect that. So that's why would you said that I'm like, oh, yeah, military stuff. I'm a big fan. I work with a few military people myself, I do truly enjoy it. I have a lot of respect for the military.

Pavel Ythjall: 23:49

I was a that was an Air Force in Sweden, but it wasn't

Steve Bisson: 23:52

see I was right. Yeah.

Pavel Ythjall: 23:57

We're a little bit like Israel lower a small country. So it's in Sweden and Israel is mandatory to do some sort of service. But um, yeah, I think it's more respect. Steve, I try to be respectful of people like that's part of the, the brother and just how I approach life and how I approach people now already. We, you took your time to talk to me and I want to be respectful of your time. And, you know, he tried to try to do your best every day, right? Yeah, so that's cat. So it took her a while to sorry, I'm going back to cat but it took her a while to reach this place where she was able to take on a full time job and an educate herself to a therapist and so forth. But, but yeah, she's back on her horse. Now again, man, she's back back doing stuff that you did before the accident. So there's no

Steve Bisson: 24:41

apologies to be had just for the record. I just want to make sure you know that the other thing too is that with everything that you've been through, was there a process through your own mental health therapy in regards to that? Have you been in therapy?

Pavel Ythjall: 24:55

Good question. Thank you for asking. The short answer is no. No, I have not. And I did. The first two, three years after the accident, I was convinced I was going to die out of stress. That was what I thought it was going to kill me I this constant ache in my stomach. And in hindsight, it would probably be good to talk to someone, but when you're alone with a wife, when you haven't broken neck yourself, and you've lost all your weight, your your skin and bones me, you have a wife who is paralyzed neck down, was constantly screaming from the depth of her soul that she wants to die. Like, I mean, it's just pure hell. I mean, it's as I mean, it's just like you're, you yourself are trying to like, just survive the day, I mean, literally survive the day. And the first three months I had a halo on which is a metal monster that fixates your head to your spine. So a move like this, and I drank like a bottle of whiskey every night just to be able to sleep because you can't take this hail off. So I just basically as drank myself piste drunk, just be able to sleep. You wake up and oh, yeah, here's my wife, she's still paralyzed. So it was just and then she screams that she wants to die. And I mean, it's just chaos. You live in this turmoil, you walk through the valley of death every day. So it was three years of that. So what and then once I lived through that, or learned how to live through it, then I had the tools. So the tools for me were had some free time, because I had to he also walked the beach with my Halo and listen to podcasts. And so I listened to everything that so back then was Jordan Peterson sort of started to become not famous, but he had his university lectures for his students that, you know, listen to all of those. And he also had some Biblical stuff online and listen to that. Listen to 600 episodes of Joe Rogan, not necessarily because of Joe, but because of the variety of guests, right? And then I listened to ritual, listened to a couple of psychologists, therapists, couple female ones. So that did that combined gave me the tools I picked a little bit from Jordan, picked a little bit from some Rogan's guests, and I just made myself a toolset. And what one thing was like, I gave myself three seconds to get out of bed in the morning. And if I didn't get out, after three seconds, I would just shoot myself. I mean, literally, I mean, I knew I was gonna die if I don't get up if I stay in bed. And I'll never get up. Because I just wanted to sleep. Right. So. Yeah, so I, I guess I take my tools. And in all honesty, what has helped me a lot are these conversations we're having right now. I'm so honored and privileged and thankful that I'm able to talk to you, to you to Lisa to to other therapists, that in itself is a great help.

Steve Bisson: 27:51

i The Honors all mine prevail. I truly believe that. I think that one of the things you you mentioned is not going to therapy. But in hindsight you probably should have. I think that what I love about your message there is that we tried to do it on their own, we pick up some tools, but hey, if I can get extra support, and if I had the energy to get the extra support, I probably would have been beneficial to me. So that's what I heard you say, but I could be wrong.

Pavel Ythjall: 28:15

Yeah, no, you're right. And Kat went to therapy. We had a therapist at a VA she was there for four months. And she has continued she has continued to do see therapist, which is important. She's in a, you know, obviously a much worse position than I am. So from all aspects. So so she continues and talks a lot about it. And yeah, yeah, I do, too. I guess I do, too. Right. We're talking right now. So in some way, shape or form. So yeah,

Steve Bisson: 28:41

yeah. And I think that that's what I see. There. I tell people therapy can elevate you, and just improve on the tools you have. Sometimes, I don't go to therapy every week, I've been in therapy on and off for 15 years. Right now I see my therapist every three weeks every four weeks. And sometimes we got nothing to talk about in a good way. And sometimes we have a lot to talk about. And that's a good thing too. And I think having someone to talk you know, for me one day, in my dreams, someone's going to look around and say mental health is as important as physical health and you're gonna see it equal. That's my dream in life. And once we get to that point, I'll find someone else to do.

Pavel Ythjall: 29:19

Yeah, see, I mean, just at large I feel like the mind the mind is everything right? I mean, the mind and mental health is there's nothing else that if you can control your mind or kind of work with it and be friends with it. You can do anything right be strong vocab is strong for cat is strong for cat. As my neurosurgeon said she said she had never seen anyone heal up as fast as I did. So from the broken neck, I healed up one month in advance and so she took off the halo a month in advance, and she had never seen that and I totally totally dedicated that to the mental mental 14 is telling my body to sorry I can heal up so I can be there for cat is heal up. And I did. So if there's just this opportunity for your body to do it, you can really will yourself to do it. And same goes with everything else you can will yourself to be positive in the morning. I mean, I'm not going to preach for you. But But literally I wake up and I will myself to see the world in a positive light, and that it really affects my whole day. Our views

Steve Bisson: 30:23

of the world is so important. I talk about that with a whole lot of people is that if you don't, you know, life to me is how you perceive it. If you want it to be dark and bad, and everything is gonna be dark and bad and everything. And if you want to see it as a positive thing, you can see it. and everywhere in between. I'm a bit in between type guy personally, not quite positive, not quite negative. I like to be a little in the middle ground. And I think that that's a lot of my work with trauma. And it's really done that for me. When we're going through all this. We have a lot of trauma. And you talk about the way the strike the fortitude and all that how how else can we heal from this trauma in general.

Pavel Ythjall: 31:04

For me, what I cherish the most right now as you've seen the connections like people just hanging out with people, and I truly believe that is the biggest gift we can have. If you can surround yourself with a few good friends that know you like know your heart and you can be yourself. Not have this clown mask on and you can joke and they can call you out on your bullshit if you start bullshitting or your ego starts getting away a little bit. I don't know a better feeling. I mean, I have yet to discover a better feeling than being yourself with people who really know you like the money doesn't do it for me the sex definitely doesn't do it for me. And all other aspects have not entered for people just hanging out and having a conversation like we have or is chillin with people that respect you. Maybe that's comes into it, do they respect you for what for what you are and who you are? It's, it's everything but there, obviously that respect and we are comes through a lot of suffering and what you've done so far. So that leads me into a different path. But there surely is a blessing and trauma or from at least for me, there was a huge blessing in my trauma in the sense that I tell people that if it was only me, if we take cat away from the this incident, I would not want this accident to be undone. I would want it to happen because it made me a better person. And it made me see life. And I'm sorry if I'm preaching but like obviously allergenic here. This other Pawel would have died unfulfilled and safe. This Pawel right here is adventurous and he'll he'll die fulfilled as fulfilled as he can be. And as a huge difference. I mean, it really is a huge difference. No matter what happens on the other side. This available will doubt my mind tries hookah Hey, actually, you reminded me now, it's always live so well. So you die with a smile, loosely translate Native American hookah Hey, okay. Yeah, it's some sort of a war cry from the Native American tribes. So that's it, I really tried to live as well as possible so I can die with a smile because I know how it is to not die with no smile. So again, I It's the connections from its people like I could I could walk out of here naked, literal naked with no calls on have no money, no nothing, and still be fine. Because I respect myself. I respect what I did. It's not that I don't know what I did for cat for myself. Like I understand it. And that in itself is also golden. It's part ego, but it's like, it came through suffering. I had to fight for it. And I know how hard I fought for it. So I guess. Yeah, I'm rambling now, Steve, sorry about that. No, you're

Steve Bisson: 34:02

not rambling. I think that people need to hear that. Because to me, you know, we need money to live, especially in westernized cultures. And I get that. But I've said to people, like you can have a billion dollars when you go to bed, it's not going to keep you warmer. At All right? You can have sex with 500 women on the same night, and they can all be in the same room with you. And I say women men too. It doesn't matter. Right. I'm trying to be a gender bias here. Just say, but you still have to fall asleep alone, but your own thoughts. Yeah. And to me, if you can go to bed and wake up and feeling like you've connected, accomplish something. That means a whole lot more than making a billion dollars or having sex with blank mana people. To me anyway, I don't know if you agree, but that's how I

Pavel Ythjall: 34:49

100% and I do yoga. So once or twice a week I do yoga with my physical therapist, and she's big into Buddhism too, and she has a lot of books. billionaire clients, not millionaires and billionaires. I mean, it's just unfathomable how much money that is. And she hears the same thing from all of them, like, is it like is this really hit you have they combined anything in the world, and they're still very unfulfilled. And at one end, we have a lot of suicides in Sweden, actually, it's cold and dark. But it's also like we all reach sort of a high level with a family and our Volvo, and we'll make some decent money. And we will ask ourselves is this so So you better start treating yourself from this inner values, you better start putting some emphasis on those, otherwise, your life quickly will be empty.

Steve Bisson: 35:41

And I'd rather have a life where you sit naked, but fulfilled, then have the best clothes in the world and be miserable. I'll take that any day of the week. And you said something else that really struck me and I want to talk about a little more. It's strange to think about it is trauma, a blessing? And to me, it can be for some people because it gives them that wake up call to do what's right. Because right is being there for you being there for the loved ones being there for people. I'm not taking if there is another side, I'm not taking a billion dollars on to the other side. I'm not taking all my business conquests. I'm not taking anything on the other side. And I don't know, I think it's something that I want to ask you. So can trauma be a blessing in some weird way?

Pavel Ythjall: 36:32

Yes, definitely. For me, trauma was 100%, the best thing that happened to me, I do realize that it's a tough sell, to go to people and say break your neck, break your neck to, to, like experience this. But you as a therapist, and I'm sure there's tools and ways and shapes and forms to achieve this without breaking your neck. And I've been a little bit into martial arts before and for me that's one way of achieving sort of our not this a level of trauma but still there's there's trauma in that sense that you have to really face yourself Miss facing another person in the ring. Really put yourself on on point like it's it's scary. I mean, I'm not a weak guy. I'm it's sort of semi tough guy. But I got I mean, I got literally physically mentally beaten up so many times and Krav Maga was was my discipline. It shows you who you are for sure. So there's way of incoming trauma on you in a safe manner, I think which will make you grow. So I think martial arts is one way, I'm sure you know, tons of other ways without breaking your neck, so

Steve Bisson: 37:44

to speak. It just they did i Yeah, I'm gonna just get off stage. And here. I was like, what's his link to Israel, I was like trying to figure out now you said Krav Maga, and I'm like, I got it. Great discipline for the record. And if people want to look it up, that's an amazing discipline, I give it a lot of credit. And it's not people will think about combat. It's a lot more than combat, and it's not singularly combat. So I really recommend krobo golf for people. And the other thing I was thinking about is, I think that for me, when I one of the first things I remember is I had three clients died 10 days when I was working on social service agency, and all different causes, and I'm not really going to get into that. But I remember going, you know, that vicarious trauma, you live as a therapist, and at the time identified as an atheist, mostly, that's really what you know, going to therapy, telling my therapist saying, I don't care what you believe, and you can believe in nothing. But that's a belief system. And you got to stop thinking that the belief system is such the devil, that you cannot have one. And it really changed. You know, like you said, trauma blessing. I think that loss was a great wake up call to embrace whatever spirituality and again, I don't want people to say, Steve pushing blank. Now not believing something is a belief system, in my opinion. What are you going to do if it's all done after this, and you got to live those belief systems because you cannot live life just seen client after client or taking picture after picture or doing video after video. It's not enough. You can't do that. And that's just my two cents. And I think that once we have a loss or trauma, whatever you want to call it, I think it's that wake up call that a lot of people need so it can be a blessing. And I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Pavel Ythjall: 39:32

That goosebumps from your speech, Steve. Yeah, and I really think it's, well put, I mean, I think it really puts you this is gonna sound like cliche again, but it puts you in contact with God or a higher divinity or whoever created the universe. It just puts you in contact with something bigger than yourself. It really does. And you can feel it. That's what that's what trauma does. You can feel that you're in in tune with something else. And you can also feel that you better lifts or you better live, and you better do it now, because this will end. And hopefully there'll be something else. But it won't be in this shape or form. Like we think we can all agree on that. And even if we don't agree, that doesn't matter, why would you waste this life and I'm not gonna go down the religious, religious path. But if there's something a wish for everyone is to not pray for an afterlife, you know, if anything, pray or wish or do but do it now. Like this is it, do it now,

Steve Bisson: 40:34

one of my favorite sayings that I heard before in regards to life and it goes with spirituality, no one gets out of here alive. And I tell people, I'm not getting out of here alive. I'm hoping I have a few years to go, don't get me wrong, I'm not wishing it tomorrow. But at the same time, I'm not getting out of here alive, you're not getting out of here alive. So you better have something to connect you to that whatever spiritual belief system is. So definitely agree with you.

Pavel Ythjall: 41:01

I one thing speaking of the force, what drives you and so forth. So I think people like you and me or David Goggins, I'm sure I'm sure you know what it is, it's an easy example, used to be super fat, and he willed himself down to a good weight. And he's a Navy SEAL. And he's got a world record in push ups and pull ups and all kinds of the Army Ranger and Air Force tag P and something else is the only one who skates the Special Forces out for disciplines. But so I see him every day, doing his physical exercises. And I think he needs to do that, yes, to continue living like it's in need to do that. And so he voluntarily finds the suffering. And I do the same way and with cat in the sense that other people helped us, not our family, but other people helped us. So now we help them. And when they're helped, we find other people we can help. So we, we find a suffering, like, and that keeps you going. So if you have a higher goal like that, because there's so much pain in the world, and you know that. So you can always find pain, it can be physical pain, mental pain, and you can always help someone, and they'll just keep you go on, was if I learned something, and you can talk, religion, and you can talk, theology and whatever you want all day long. But pain is real, like physical pain is real. If I slap you in the face, you will feel it, and you will react. And there's mental pain that I can be much tougher than the physical pain. So you can always find pain, and then you can try to do something about it. And that will propel you or at least propels me.

Steve Bisson: 42:45

But it propels me in regards to different things, because you know, the empathy you can have just you said, you had goosebumps, I don't know if I had the necessarily same goosebumps, but I feel this connection with you. And that empathy, you're not going anywhere. If you don't have empathy in life, even it just for yourself, if that's the only thing you have, at least you have it for yourself. You need that stuff, or else you're dead, in my opinion, you can be physically alive, but you're

Pavel Ythjall: 43:13

dead. Yeah, Steve, you're so right. And just let me take this opportunity to you so people understand. I wrote a book a book about this. And it really, is to explain that while to realize this, it took me a while to be good person empathetic, like it was up until the point where a cat really looked at me, or looked up at me from a wheelchair and said, what if this was you? Like, what if this was you, and that's which me if I told myself, I was gonna be strong for cat and help her fine. But during those first two years, I still had my dreams. They were still working. I mean, I don't want to call the devil because that's not it. But they were still looking, there's like, look, I have no mobility, I can go back to my normal life. All I have to do is go out of here and do it. And then she looked up at me and said, what if this was and it just switched everything? For me? It was just those four words, like, and then became the most empathetic manners and order in the world. You know? Because what if the me, what would I want her to do for me? So, I mean, and it's easy. So we had those sort of moments, in like, every two years, something happened that lured us more together, we gain more understanding for each other, so to speak, because we're only humans. We're only you always think something's better. Something's shining over there. So

Steve Bisson: 44:36

yeah, now the shiny thing that you see might only be piece of aluminum foil under the table that you're gonna grab instead of gold or what have you. So just for the record, so he talked about the book did you mention the title of the book?

Pavel Ythjall: 44:51

True love and suffering. So a caretakers memoir of trauma, despair and other blessings? What I found some actual I to be really honest and describe the journey, all my failures. All my why even when I betrayed cat in the sense that when she was released from the VA or the day before, we sat around a big oval table with generals, doctors neurosurgeons and cat asked, who's gonna take care of me. And like literally 1012 people in front of her and I said, I don't want to be your caregiver. So I was two, three months in, I was being strong for her. But mentally, I was not ready to take care of her for life. And that crushed her. And so I try to be honest about that my own shortcomings. And I also try to elaborate and describe how I gain strength and how you the reader can gain strength and resilience and hope and love by reading it. A lot of it through connection and a lot of a lot of it being honest.

Steve Bisson: 45:55

Yeah, and I think that that's what we have in life connection. And I hope people go and get the book, it's of where's it available.

Pavel Ythjall: 46:02

Amazon is the easiest ways to love and suffering, Amazon, like,

Steve Bisson: 46:09

you'll find it, I will actually link it in the show notes. Thank you, is there any other way that you we can communicate with you reach out to you or

Pavel Ythjall: 46:19

true love the book.com as the most recent info, the true love the book.com is a good place to start. And I do respond to, to most emails, and I'm grateful for everyone that reads the book and reviews it and of them. It's funny, I've gained I've, I've gotten so many emails from people that have gained strength in their marriage between like, you wouldn't think they're not trauma victims, per se, but they've just understood what makes it tick. Like what makes a better life. So I appreciate that. It's really good. It's good to help. Well, obviously, you know, Steve, you're your therapist, but there's no better feeling.

Steve Bisson: 47:00

Now there is no better feeling. And I hope people go and get the book. I will link it in the show notes. I will link your website to in the show notes. But Pawel, on a personal note, I gotta tell you this. It's a touching story. This was in very many ways, in a good way in an intense interview. And I was thinking about how we we've been trying to connect for about a month. Now people don't know all these things. But you know, we were due to talk to each other, I think, because between one point, such a generous guy, like, Oh, I'll be on vacation, but I can talk and I'm like, No, take your vacation, we'll have plenty of time. And of course, then he has, we had trouble finding a studio for you. Then I had a issue with my scheduling. And then this morning, you're telling me that maybe the microphone wasn't going all that great. I'm like, we're gonna find a way we got to communicate, and we got to connect. So I just want to say thank you on a personal note, because I really connected to you, I really appreciate you. I hope people go grab the book. And I thank you for your time.

Pavel Ythjall: 48:03

Thank you, Steve, I thank you for having me. And this was one of the most if not the most fun discussion, you really learned some other stuff out of me that I hadn't talked about, and I really appreciate that. So I consider it as my therapy session. So thank you, Steve. I appreciate it.

Steve Bisson: 48:18

Alright, just Why are your health insurance I'll send you a bill. Well, this concludes episode 97 of finding your way through therapy. Thank you. Pawel, please go check him out. He has even a Amazon Video special that you can go check out so I hope you do. But episode 98 will be with someone. I'm joining his network and I'll leave it at that so you'll have to listen. But it is Gordon Brewer. Gordon is someone I've known for a while I was actually on his podcast recently. So I hope you join me.

Outro: 48:51

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