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Resilience Development in Action
Discover practical resilience strategies that transform lives. Join Steve Bisson, licensed mental health counselor, as he guides first responders, leaders, and trauma survivors through actionable insights for mental wellness and professional growth.
Each week, dive deep into real conversations about grief processing, trauma recovery, and leadership development. Whether you're a first responder facing daily challenges, a leader navigating high-pressure situations, or someone on their healing journey, this podcast delivers the tools and strategies you need to build lasting resilience.
With over 20 years of mental health counseling experience, Steve brings authentic, professional expertise to every episode, making complex mental health concepts accessible and applicable to real-world situations.
Featured topics include:
• Practical resilience building strategies
• First responder mental wellness
• Trauma recovery and healing
• Leadership development
• Grief processing
• Professional growth
• Mental health insights
• Help you on your healing journey
Each week, join our community towards better mental health and turn your challenges into opportunities for growth with Resilience Development in Action.
Resilience Development in Action
E.211 Grief Never Ends: Navigating Trauma in First Responder Life
Gordon Brewer, a licensed marriage and family therapist with over 25 years of experience, joins Steve to unpack the complex relationship between trauma, grief, and emotional resilience in the first responder community. Their conversation touches on a critical but often overlooked barrier to mental health care—the fear that therapists can't handle the horrific realities first responders face daily.
"Sometimes people forget about how trauma manifests in different ways," Gordon explains, sharing how his background as a funeral director gave him unique insights into grief processing. Both experts explore why first responders might test their therapists by sharing graphic details, essentially asking: "Can you handle my reality?"
The discussion delves into the subtle yet important distinctions between grief and trauma. For first responders who regularly encounter death, these experiences can trigger complex emotional responses, especially when they've previously tried to help someone who ultimately died. This creates layers of grief beyond the immediate situation—grief for what couldn't be prevented and the weight of perceived failure.
A fascinating segment explores emotional intelligence within first responder culture. "Anger is acceptable, happiness is acceptable, the rest of it not so much," Steve notes, highlighting how limited emotional expression can prevent proper processing. Gordon adds that understanding your internal emotional landscape doesn't require displaying vulnerability publicly, but acknowledging emotions privately is essential for preventing acute stress from becoming trauma.
Drawing from Brené Brown's work, they explore how vulnerability forms the foundation of courage—a seeming paradox particularly relevant for first responders. "You cannot have courage without vulnerability," Gordon emphasizes. "Just because we do the job doesn't negate the fact that we had those feelings of fear."
Perhaps most powerfully, they discuss how community support facilitates healing. Gordon shares personal insights from losing his wife to cancer, illustrating how simple presence often matters more than words. They note how first responder communities excel at immediate support but often disappear after a few weeks, leaving families to navigate ongoing grief alone.
Join this authentic conversation that bridges professional expertise with personal experience, offering practical wisdom for anyone navigating trauma, supporting others through grief, or seeking to build greater emotional resilience in challenging circumstances.
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Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where strength meets strategy and courage to help you move forward. Each week, your host, steve Bisson, a therapist with over two decades of experience in the first responder community, brings you powerful conversations about resilience, growth and healing through trauma and grief. Through authentic interviews, expert discussions and real-world experiences, we dive deep into the heart of human resilience. We explore crucial topics like trauma recovery, grief processing, stress management and emotional well-being. This is Resilience Development in Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2:Hi and welcome to Episode 211. If you haven't listened to episode 210, it was with the mental men, the guys that you know Bob, pat, dennis, andy and Chris, just shooting the stuff about retirement and how that looks like and how it can be difficult to lose those roles really relatable for first responders. But episode 211 will be with Gordon Brewer. I think that we want to talk about a lot of different things. He's someone who's been in practice for over 30 years. He's the lead of Psychcraft Network and I'm sure we're going to talk about grief, trauma and stuff like that. So here's the interview.
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Speaker 2:Freeai, a great service. Go to get freeai and you will get one of the best services that will save you time and money, and I highly encourage you to do so. Well, welcome everyone. And I had Gordon on when it was called Finding your Way Through Therapy and I believe that was episode 57, and I'm on 212. So it's been a while since I've seen Gordon and I'm so happy to have Gordon Brewer, who is the leader of PsychGraph Network, which I'm very proud to be part of, and great podcast there, and I wanted to welcome him back to Now, resilience Development in Action. Leader of psych graph network, which I'm very proud to be part of, and great podcast there, and I wanted to welcome them back to now.
Speaker 2:Resilience development in action yes, glad to be here, steve yes, you know what one of the things that I, you know, we, we were talking beforehand because gordon and I, like I'd like to consider us closer. You know, good friends, at this point, we, we talk a lot and you know, we obviously have very different podcasts and I know a lot of people who are listening to this are going to be first responders, and we were talking about like, oh geez, where can we go with this? One of the things that really struck me is that sometimes people forget about the trauma stuff and how it can manifest in different ways. Before we go there, though, I should ask you to introduce yourself a little bit, in case people haven't heard the other episode all right, all right.
Speaker 3:Well, thanks, steve, it's really good to be back on on your podcast. The new, revised maneuver new and improved resilience, development and action. I'm gordon brewer. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I've been a therapist now for oh gosh, nearly 25 years now, which is hard to believe when I start thinking about that. But yeah, and so one of the things that I primarily focus on is in my practice is, for me personally, is I work with a lot of men, men that are struggling with, you know, different kinds of trauma, but also just sexual function, all of that kind of thing or things that I tend to help people with. And I think you know most therapists are women we're in the minority, steve, being men and so I think, a lot of men that reach out to us and that sort of thing, and you know, thinking about first responders, one of the things that you know we were thinking about before we are talking about before we started recording, is just the.
Speaker 3:I think a lot of times when people come to therapists, they're really carrying some very heavy stuff and really some maybe horrific situations that they've gone through. I think one of the reluctance to share is is they're not sure if the person they're telling is going to be able to handle it. They're worried about traumatizing the therapist or that sort of thing, and so I think that's an interesting phenomenon I was sharing with Steve, a client I had recently who had been in a very traumatic shooting accident when he was a child, and I think one of the reasons he told me the graphic detail of that was he was just testing me to see if I could handle that, and so I think one of the things I know we talked about too, steve, is just, you know, people maybe being reluctant to go to therapy, and I think that might be one reason there is just making sure they've got a therapist that they know can help them process.
Speaker 2:You know, some really bad stuff when it happens, or has happened and I think that that's what they worry so much about for first responders in general. You know and first and foremost, me and Gordon also just want to put it out there we don't think every first responder is going to go through trauma, but they will be in more difficult experiences than the general populations or civilians. However, I think that when there's this, I don't know if they can handle it. It's a real phenomenon about the cultural competency of individuals. You're talking about the shooting.
Speaker 2:I also had a client tell me that when they went to see a therapist who was supposedly a first responder therapist, they were talking about a significant event that they went through. There was a call that went on and after they were done talking about it, the therapist says I need a few minutes to process this. Well, how's that for a turnoff for any first responder Like you can't handle it. Well, now you prove that you can't handle it. You know, one of the things I know you also do is you work with people who want to start. You know the podcasting and having their experiences be valued. You know, I think that one of the things I find interesting is that you talk about trauma. We talk about grief and knowing what your competencies are and not overreaching. I think that that's a big issue sometimes with therapists and that's why first responders they get a little reluctant sometimes to reach out, right, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think it's helpful to find in looking for a therapist is to find someone that has had at least some background in extreme trauma, whether they've been in the military or whether they have been a first responder, that sort of thing.
Speaker 3:I think it goes a long way with being able to feel like the person that you're talking to truly understands what it's like. You know, one of the things that, although I was a first responder for a short while when I was in high school, I worked for part of a volunteer rescue squad in the town that I lived in growing up and so got to do that job for a short while. But the other thing for me was is later, my first career was as a funeral funeral director in funeral homes, and so you get you get hit with a lot of trauma there as well. It's not not exactly the same, but you're around death and those those kinds of things, and I think it's important to find a therapist that has an understanding of okay, this is what it might feel like when, when you've been faced with something like that and also just knowing that you're not going to like I'm repeating myself not going to traumatize the therapist, and being reassured of that when you're telling having to you know, going through the process of processing traumatic events.
Speaker 2:I think that you said you know you're repeating yourself, but I think it's important there's subtle differences between grief and trauma, and that is absolutely true and I mean we can talk about it here. But ultimately, being a funeral director, you deal with the grief and unfortunately, sometimes grief brings back past traumas and what I find with the first responders I think about my medics and police officers sometimes they'll go to a call of someone they were suicidal two months ago, six months ago, three years ago, and then they go to a call where the suicide actually occurred and then they have the grief process and the whole having to the call where the suicide actually occurred. And then you know they have the grief process and the whole having to do all that stuff. But then it's like, oh crap, I didn't, like I didn't.
Speaker 2:You know I'm not saying that they have complexes, but sometimes like, oh, I thought I saved this guy, I thought I helped him, what's wrong with me? And then there's this grief and loss of that person that you saved and I'm not put go to YouTube. I'm putting this in quotation marks, and I think that that plays a factor too, because when you go to the funeral, I find that people don't cry necessarily about just the person in front of them. They're talking about the other parts that they've lost and all that. So there's subtle differences, but I think that we're in the same page, that grief and trauma is very similar.
Speaker 3:Right, right, and I think the other thing to recognize around grief and trauma is it's something that you actually carry in your body. I mean, there's been a lot of studies around this and a lot of information about how grief and trauma affects people physiologically and that you really do carry it in your body. And there's also the triggers that come up. Anybody that's worked in grief and trauma talks about triggers and just things that can happen that maybe are not related, but your brain goes into overdrive, so to speak. You know responding to difficult situations as if they were dangerous. But I think you know one of the things that I think is a good thing for anybody to do, whether they're first responders or not, is to learn as much as you can about something we refer to as emotional intelligence, of being able to know how to just handle emotions. And unfortunately the word no, we're not.
Speaker 3:Nobody is given an instruction, instruction manual on that, but I've got a cat here, so there's an instruction manual that came with the cat yeah, no, no, so but uh, yeah, uh yeah, about handle, how to handle emotions, and I think a lot of people, how we learn, that is what we've, you know, we learn from our family of origin and that sort of thing, and so finding mentors or people that you can, um, you can, you can talk to uh and just learn how to center yourself, how to regulate your own emotions well, and so, again, easier said than done, but that's where a therapist can come in and teach you some different things and different techniques and different strategies for handling the big emotions that come up when there is trauma or grief that we're dealing with.
Speaker 2:I think that there's so many things. I want to go on here and I'll let you decide where you want to go, because emotional intelligence one of the things that I suddenly talk about is With people in the first responder world. Anger is acceptable, happiness is acceptable, the rest of it not so much. And having the emotional intelligence is maybe you don't display it, but you're acknowledging that there was a surprise, there was a fear involved, there was other emotions, and then processing them afterwards. I have that conversation constantly, like not everything is just two emotions and it's usually more complex than that and acknowledge that and then you don't need to like cry on scene or some shit, but at the end of the day, you got to be able to have that emotional intelligence of recognizing oh, the reason why I'm feeling so angry is I was scared and nothing happened. Oh, so there's fear. Okay, let's process that fear. It actually helps things not become trauma but acute stress disorder. Process that fear. It actually helps things not become trauma but acute stress disorder.
Speaker 2:The other thing I was mentioning about grief and you talked about the grief. You know, I've been through grief, you've been through grief and I'm going to leave it as vague as I possibly can here, unless you want to talk more specifically. But I have a therapist to help me through my grief. While I'm very competent with other people and their grief and most people would say that about me I need help too, and I don't have any pride anymore. I used to be a little prideful about these things. Nowadays I'm like yeah, I see my therapist regularly. Joe smacks me around when he needs to, supports me when I need to, and he seems to know it better than I do, so it's always helpful. So I don't know where you want to go. But those are the two things that came to mind when you were talking.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's so important to find people in your life and therapists are trained to do this but find a person that you can be brutally honest with, talk about your internal world in a way that is not going to be judged, in a way that is not going to be judged, not going to be put any sort of, you know, stigmas on it or anything like that. Being able to just process it, and that's such a huge thing for people. I think that's where healing comes is to be able to tell the story about what has happened without there being a lot of the judgment that gets laid on that. And you know, unfortunately, most of the judgment that people have is comes from within. It's not the people they're telling or the people that they're sharing things with that judge, but we judge ourselves, and so being able to understand that and being able to recognize that we're all broken and fragile people, regardless of what people might see on the outside, all of us are vulnerable, and it's when vulnerability occurs is when we actually find courage.
Speaker 2:There was a you just said a very dirty word there, Gordon, but I'll let you go.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so well, one of the things— where I was going to go there with that is a few years ago I watched—I think it was on Netflix and it was by Brene Brown and the title of it was something— it had something with courage in it.
Speaker 3:But one of the things, one of the things that she mentions in there, which is so true, is you cannot have courage without vulnerability. If you think and I remember there was somebody in the audience that I believe it was a service member, a Marine or something who had been in harm's way and they were talking about you know what that, what that felt like, and that you're totally vulnerable and totally scared. But without that you can't have courage. And so that doesn't mean you put on the stiff upper lip and pretend like you're not feeling scared or feeling hurt or whatever, but you and anybody that's a first responder has experienced this is that you go into situations that are either life-threatening or dangerous, or people could get hurt, or somebody's about to bleed out, or themselves hurt or somebody's about to bleed out or themselves yeah, are there, are there about to die, or they're having to do CPR on somebody or whatever.
Speaker 3:That's scary as hell and that's, and yet the adrenaline's going and all of that sort of thing, and it's a very vulnerable moment. But the people, we have the ability to push through and do the job, so to speak. But just because we do the job doesn't negate the fact that we had those feelings of fear and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:I mean it goes. There's so many things. Again, the dirty word I was talking about is vulnerability. Yes, I mean we can pick on the first responders, but I don't know many people who are very comfortable with vulnerability, and bernie brown is I. I I just wish I could meet her once.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, I love bernie, sure love bernie, yeah yeah, um, but I think the vulnerability part is so key. The other part that I remember from that special that is also important for any type of people, but particularly first responders is when she talks to her husband. They've learned how to talk about it, as the story I'm telling myself is Whenever they react to something negatively.
Speaker 2:And that way you can process what you're saying to yourself and what you're saying about the situation. You're talking about what we say to ourselves. I know half the crap I say in my head. I would never say to gordon or anyone I love, um, frankly, even people I don't love, I wouldn't say that and it's, that's that, that whole the story I'm telling myself, gordon, I'm. The story I'm telling my right now myself is you're nodding, but you think I'm stupid. I'm like no, steve, I don't think you're stupid, but sometimes you can't verify that in the moment, and I get that. But remind yourself of not only that vulnerability, it's also sharing that story you're telling yourself, and I think that's part of a big key of what Brene Brown talks about.
Speaker 3:And.
Speaker 3:I think a lot of first responders struggle with that Right right, yeah, and I think it's important to remember that it's through vulnerability also that we build significant relationships. Yeah, well, anybody again I'm preaching to the choir here with people that are listeners. Here, there's a bond that you have with your workmates or people that you've been in harm's way with and that you know, that you know and you understand what it's like to have gone through that, and you also know that the other person has got your back, that the other person has got your back, and so the vulnerable part would be, would come in when you can get together with those people those colleagues, those people that you work with or friends and talk about the stuff that has happened. And I think I dare say that probably, when people get the courage to do that, what they find out is the people closest to them are feeling just as scared and just as hurt by situations as they are themselves.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, and that's how you it's also how you heal is through care, community and through, you know, sharing your story and knowing that you're not alone I think that that's exactly where, you know, part of what we did in pre-interview is talking about the stigma and I think that sometimes it's that vulnerability with a colleague. That's also difficult because you go on a call and the other colleague's not affected and you're kind of like inside of you you're having trouble. Well, I'm not going to tell him and if I go to therapy it's going's going to look so-and-so and I'm like I tell him, I'm like you'll see that when you open up about something that fucked you up, you will be able to relate to the other person Like oh good, I thought it was just me and there's a whole book on I thought it was me and the other book that I, when you were talking about the body, keeps the score, which is the Bible of trauma, and if people are interested I'll put it in the show notes. But I think that what you know, that stigma is really hard. I mean even I'll show you how you know.
Speaker 2:We're talking about first responders. We're sitting there in a group with the psych craft network and I was struggling with the direction of my, my podcast. It felt so vulnerable saying I don't like what, what my podcast is looking like. I might need to change because, well, these guys know everything, they have it together and this and that, and I opened up and then again not naming names because it's not that's for them to talk almost everyone was like, oh yeah, me too, and I always I thought it was me. And learning to show that vulnerability actually creates a lot more bonding that people realize.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, and that's the only way we get through anything that is hard in life is with community and with the people that you surround yourself with. You know, I shared with Steve knows part of my story, but a couple of years ago I lost my wife. She had gone through a 13 year battle with breast cancer and that sort of thing and you know the caregiving and all of that sort of thing. And people would ask me you know, how did you do that? And I said well, it was painful, but the only way I did it is through my community, the people that I surrounded myself with, and just people that were there for me. There were no magic words that they said or anything, but I just knew that they were present. And so those are.
Speaker 3:And finding people that are willing to come and just do literally anything for you I mean people. Here's another thing that creates some courage. You know. I think, particularly if there's been a death or an illness or something traumatic happened, people will say well, let me know if I can do anything for you, and I think most people are genuine about that. But I think a mistake that a lot of people make is no, I'm fine, I don't need anything. Well, take advantage of that and and take the help that they're going to offer.
Speaker 3:I mean again, sharing a little bit of my story is my wife was in hospice care there towards the end and we after she day she died. One of my friends called me and says Gordon, he says I really mean it, what is there anything I can do for you to help? And I said, well, you know, what would be really nice is if somebody, if we could get some people to come in and just take down the hospital bed and all the stuff that we had in the living room, the oxygen and all the stuff. And within an hour there were eight people in my home hauling stuff out and taking things and putting it back like it was. And I was just so grateful for that. And that was just. For some people that might not seem like a big thing, but it was huge for that. And that was just that. For some people that might not seem like a big thing, but it was huge for me.
Speaker 2:The support from our community is always essential. I mean, I even remember when you were talking to us privately and again your story to tell and about the difficulties that were going on. And you know, being there to just have someone to listen to, even if they don't do anything, just listening, sometimes is like three quarters of the battle. Usually it's a half. I say three quarters. The other part too. In the first responder world one of the biggest things is that you know, for the first week or two after some significant event of a officer or a firefighter or medical person passing away, everyone's there for the first two weeks. And then after two weeks and I've dealt with widows, I've dealt with other families like no one's there Everyone says I'll do something for you, I'll do something for you, and then after two weeks they forget about it.
Speaker 2:And I remind people that you know grief is not like after two weeks, you're good, get back in it's. I mean, I'm still grieving the loss of my friend when I was 12. I still am grieving the loss of my dad from close to 10 years ago. I'm grieving a whole lot of different people. I'm not crying, I'm not actively upset, but there's days where when people say what do you wish for? I'd kill a hug from my grandmother and people are like oh well, I know they're like, but that's grief. Don't think it goes away. It's not like a magic pill. So I think to manage that too is let the family know after two weeks, two months, whatever go check on them, see how they're doing. Uh, the first responder world is superb to being there for the first few weeks and after that they're not so good because they get into their lives. They got their own stuff going on. So that's the other part of grief that I kind of remind my guys about.
Speaker 3:Right, right. Yeah, grief is not something you get over.
Speaker 3:It's something you move through, and I think that's something for people to be aware of and know it's you know, and if you, if anybody has grieved or gone through the death, one of the greatest things somebody can do is ask you about it. I think a lot of times we we shy away from asking people about, okay, how are you doing? You know, or you know one of the things that that people always ask. You know, like, if there's been a death or something traumatic and they'll you know, say, of the spouse or the close friends, well, how are they doing? Which is really just code, for I don't want to. I don't necessarily want to hear about their grief, I just want to. I want to hear oh, they're okay, oh, I don't have to, I don't have to be confronted with their grief.
Speaker 3:But one of the things about grief is that the greatest thing you could do is just be present with someone. You don't have to fix it, there's nothing you could fix. I mean, particularly if there's a death, you know they're dead, you can't fix that. And so just being present and just being there and just being able to say, let me just sit with you, we don't have to say anything, but I'll just be here with you just to know you're not alone, and that just goes so far in helping people heal.
Speaker 2:The grief and the trauma are exactly that. It doesn't even need to be talked about. It's about being there for each other. I tell people just sit with them. What do I say? You don't need to say nothing. Hey, you know what? I'm here, we'll watch a movie or we'll do whatever, but I'm here, and sometimes even sitting in silence, going to a park or whatever. I know some people like to go to the grave. No need to talk, you just need to be there and just having that presence is a healing process. Going through it, as you said, versus getting over it Right.
Speaker 2:Well, gordon, I know that we're getting close to time here. I want to make sure we talk about your stuff too, because I talked about the Psycraft Network. I'm a big fan obviously part of it but I'd love to hear more about you and what you're doing and what you're bringing to the world, as you say on your podcast. That I always love to hear from you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yes, yes, so, yeah. So, as I mentioned, I'm a marriage and family therapist. I have a small group practice in Kingsport, tennessee, which is in the northeast corner of Tennessee, and I've got five clinicians that work for me and just really proud of my team of people there at our little practice. But I also have my own podcast, the Practice of Therapy, which is really geared more towards therapists and helping them with the business side of running a practice, but also a lot of the clinical issues that we're talking, things that we're talking about today. So it's been there for a while now. I've been.
Speaker 3:It's hard to believe. I started that podcast in 2017 and here we're still going, so it's almost not too far from the 10 year mark, which is just unbelievable. But also, as Steve mentioned, I started in 2022, the Psychcraft Network, and it is just a network of podcasters independent podcasters that are in this space of psychology, self-help, you know, business building and that kind of thing. And, yeah, we've got some great members of that and people can find out more about that by going to just sitecraftnetworkcom, and Steve is a member of the network.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, Very proud of it and, um, for those of you who will, we could go to the youtube channel for the psych craft network we do lives I think we're going to get closer to being more regular, but we're going to do lives and we talk about different stuff.
Speaker 2:For those of you who came for here for trauma, grief and first responder stuff, well, the good news about psych craft network is I think every member touches it a little bit and in their own ways, and there's a practice elevation, there's course creation, there is how to manage your business. I know that julie was on james podcast recently.
Speaker 2:Yes, you know, and I I think that what I would argue as a person who may be listening to this go check it out. There's got to be another podcast for you. If you have someone in your life, that means a lot. There's an autism now that I know is part of the Psychcraft Network, so I think that that's where, like Psychcraft Network, is meant to be a supportive mental hall, and I think it's important because it's not just me.
Speaker 3:There's so many other great services we offer. Right, right, yeah, and I'm excited about the YouTube lives that we're going to be doing. We're going to I think we're going to delve into a lot of different topics, but just, I think, bringing some, some smart people together and talking about what they know.
Speaker 2:I love. I love doing those lives, because, you know, I look at this like craft network. There's a lot of great people. I'm the pain in the butt. I opened my mouth a little too much. I'm fine with it, by the way, I'm not opposed to it, I just. It just makes everyone laugh and we have a good time. But we talk about serious topics too and we want to help people. So that's the important part. That's good. Yeah Well, gordon, 100%. Thank you again.
Speaker 3:And I appreciate your time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks, steve, enjoyed talking with you and for everyone else. Appreciate your time too. Well, that completes episode 211. If you want a deeper dive again, go and see RDA After Dark, which is available. I'm going to link it in the show notes. It's a little supplement and a deeper dive onto what me and Gordon talked about, so I hope you go and check it out. It's a paid subscription but I think it's going to be worth your money, so I hope you go and listen to it and I will see you for episode 212.
Speaker 1:Please like, subscribe and follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful and, as a reminder, this podcast is for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor for consultation. If you are in a mental health crisis, call 988 for assistance. This number is available in the United States and Canada.
