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Resilience Development in Action
Discover practical resilience strategies that transform lives. Join Steve Bisson, licensed mental health counselor, as he guides first responders, leaders, and trauma survivors through actionable insights for mental wellness and professional growth.
Each week, dive deep into real conversations about grief processing, trauma recovery, and leadership development. Whether you're a first responder facing daily challenges, a leader navigating high-pressure situations, or someone on their healing journey, this podcast delivers the tools and strategies you need to build lasting resilience.
With over 20 years of mental health counseling experience, Steve brings authentic, professional expertise to every episode, making complex mental health concepts accessible and applicable to real-world situations.
Featured topics include:
• Practical resilience building strategies
• First responder mental wellness
• Trauma recovery and healing
• Leadership development
• Grief processing
• Professional growth
• Mental health insights
• Help you on your healing journey
Each week, join our community towards better mental health and turn your challenges into opportunities for growth with Resilience Development in Action.
Resilience Development in Action
E.217 Bouncing Back: A Cop and Counselor Spill Their Marriage Tea
What happens when a police officer and a counselor not only share their professional expertise but also their marriage journey? In this candid, powerful conversation, Ashley and Dustin Wright bring a unique dual perspective to the challenges facing first responder marriages.
Marriage requires resilience for everyone, but for those in law enforcement, the stakes are particularly high. "Resiliency in law enforcement is super important," explains Dustin, "because we're going to have troubles, struggles, and we need to bounce back pretty quickly." With divorce rates among first responders reaching a staggering 60-75%, the Wrights share practical strategies that have helped them navigate both professional pressures and relationship challenges.
The conversation delves into several crucial aspects of relationship health: the importance of preparing emotionally before crises hit, distinguishing between having a safe partner and using them as an emotional dumping ground, and extending grace to partners who witness society's darkest moments. Ashley offers particularly valuable insights for first responder spouses: "We do not realize the amount of images, sounds, smells, things that they're taking in on a regular basis," she explains, highlighting why intentional communication and decompression time are essential.
Perhaps most compelling is their discussion about supporting each other's growth journeys. When one partner embraces therapy or spiritual development, the other can misinterpret this as abandonment rather than opportunity. "How do we partner in that," Ashley asks, "rather than feeling insecure or putting the other person down?" Their answers provide a roadmap for couples facing similar challenges.
Ready to strengthen your relationship while navigating the unique demands of first responder life? Listen now for insights that could transform your connection and build resilience that lasts through even the most challenging circumstances.
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Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where strength meets strategy and courage to help you move forward. Each week, your host, steve Bisson, a therapist with over two decades of experience in the first responder community, brings you powerful conversations about resilience, growth and healing through trauma and grief. Through authentic interviews, expert discussions and real-world experiences, we dive deep into the heart of human resilience. We explore crucial topics like trauma recovery, grief processing, stress management and emotional well-being. This is Resilience Development in Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2:Hi and welcome to episode 217. This is the conclusion of episode 216 with Ashley and Dustin Wright. You heard the bio in the last one Quick Lido. He's a police officer, she's a counselor. Both have strong ties to church and their faith in Christ. And let's continue the interview.
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Speaker 3:Yeah, resiliency and I'll speak from law enforcement is super important because we're going to have troubles, we're going to have struggles and we need to bounce back pretty quickly in what we do. If me and Ashley are having a serious, like terrible, disagreement and I take that into work well, that now affects my decision making on these life and death calls and if I don't have the resiliency to be able to overcome that, that can be life-changing and I think that's important. When we talk about what resiliency is, it's that ability to handle that and bounce back, and so that's what I would talk. Same with our marriage. Right, we're going to have difficulties, we're going to have tough times. What does it look like when we have that? How quickly do we bounce back and everything?
Speaker 4:Yeah, and sometimes it's easy to bounce back. Sometimes it's, you know, a small hurt, but I think the reality is we see it in therapy all the time. You know things can build and so that goes back to you know you need to get in the habit in your marriage of talking about things and being vulnerable and you know prioritizing, you know kind of some foundational things to your relationship and being intentional about that, so that you can show up and when the harder things hit or if there's something that you know you can't resolve right away, you just feel a little bit more resilient and prepared.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I want to add and we talked about it from the beginning is the preparation part. You cannot expect to have something bad happen and not do any preparation beforehand and be okay. It's the same thing with, like, law enforcement training. I can't expect to go out there and hit a, you know, shoot a hundred percent if I'm not even doing that in training. So what? What are we? What are we doing now, before that happens? You know, if you have nothing prepared, you should be meeting with a therapist, meeting with a group. Hey guys, I want to put some things in place in case this does happen. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the other part, that you didn't say those exact word, but I think that sometimes what I find when my law enforcement couples you said something to the effect of and this is me paraphrasing growing is together. And what I mean, what I think is so important, is I see too many people like, oh, my wife or my husband or my partner or whatever politically correct, where are we going to use this week? I'm not much of a politically correct guy, but oh, they're doing this. I'm like that's their growth, get into the growth with them. They're not running away from you, they're just growing.
Speaker 2:And I think that sometimes I see that, particularly in first responders I'm not trying to shit on anyone, but that's true. They see that as a threat. It's not a threat, it's a good thing. But too many people see it as a threat and I don't know if that's your you've seen that, but I've certainly. You know someone turns to XYZ therapy or a God or whatever, and then they're like well, they're leaving me behind. No, no one's leaving you behind, you're choosing that. But I don't know if you've seen that, but that's just wanted to throw that out too.
Speaker 4:Yeah, definitely seen some of that, and something Dustin and I were just talking about the other day is you know, what does it look like to you know, speak highly about your partner.
Speaker 4:What does it look like Like when they're not in the room? You know how are you serving them in that way. You know how are you serving them in that way. You know how are you talking about them, how are you praying for them, how are you kind of being their biggest cheerleader in a way. And you know that can be really hard sometimes in your marriage, but it really tears apart the resiliency, the strength of your marriage when you're not investing in studying and and cheering each other on in that way. So if one partner is growing a little bit more than the other, that should, like you said, that shouldn't be a bad thing. It's a it's a great thing. And everybody grows at different levels and at different times and in different ways. But how do we partner in that rather than feeling insecure or putting the other person down?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's tough in the law enforcement world because we go to these calls sometimes and you know you go to three domestics in a night and you know one party's cheated on the other in each one and you're like, oh my gosh, it's, you know if it's happening here it's happening at home, and you know we tend to like go down these rabbit holes sometimes too, and I've been in the.
Speaker 3:you know we tend to like go down these rabbit holes sometimes too, and I've been in the. You know the rooms where you're like, sit there and you're like, are you really talking about your spouse that way? You know like, right, you know. So. It's just what can we be doing better to, like we talked about earlier, serve our spouse to get closer, you know, to partner with them, while they do want to grow right, like hey, I want to come along on your journey.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's something. We've been talking a lot this week about these topics, and something that also came up was just grace. You know, dustin brought up a great example just now. Responders are coming home and while they're used to the job, they know what they're doing and they're you know, this is their line of work, so it's not rocking the boat per se every night for them when they're on these calls or you know days or whatnot, but the reality is they're taking in a lot and, as a spouse, something that I'm always encouraging spouses is extend grace, because there are a lot of people in this world that could not do what these men and women are doing.
Speaker 4:Do what these men and women are doing and we do not realize the amount of images, sounds, smells, things that they're taking in on a regular basis all the time, and so, while they are so gifted at it and it's a calling and they're doing what they need to do, as a spouse it is important for us to extend grace sometimes and realize that they're bringing home a lot, and so that decompression time and all these other tools that we're talking about is really important for them and it doesn't mean it doesn't go the other way. Obviously, spouses need it too. Kids need grace, wives, husbands, need grace. But it does kind of help us zoom out, if you will, and think about the bigger picture of what the responder is actually doing on a day-to-day basis, and it's pretty incredible.
Speaker 2:You know, that's the other part too that I think people don't understand and they need to share with their spouse that they're seeing the 5% that the 95% of the population doesn't know about. You know, that's how I describe it is. At five you get the point right and when you see that you start looking at your own life and you get a little paranoid, you get a little whatever, and that's not abnormal, it's acknowledging it, but also recognizing it as paranoia, recognizing as working on the couple, working on yourself, working on whatever. Because, again, if I'm breaking a wall here, you can kick my butt later on, dustin. But I also see in law enforcement who are not faithful to their partners and that sometimes happens too and that also messes with your head. So if I'm breaking a wall here, you can kick my butt. But believe me, I think it's fairly well known.
Speaker 3:You're a hundred percent accurate. I think we looked up data the other day. You're 100% accurate. I think we looked up data the other day. Law enforcement divorces are like 60 to 70% 75%. It was astronomical and well above the national average.
Speaker 2:And firefighters are up there too. Yeah, vulnerability, being able to say something. That's hard, you know. I think that what people tend to do is they don't you know. And again, you're the therapist.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to turn to you, although I am one too, but I think that sometimes I feel like it's easier to say gee, ashley, you did this wrong, versus you know what? I'm having a hard time, and I think that that's what I tell people is that you just got to change the language, because your wife, your husband, partner, not pissing you off on purpose, they're trying to be supportive. They just don't know how. And for me, like I had to explain that to so many people, because even in my own life, you really want to annoy me ask me 20 questions about anything, then I'm out of there. I'm out. I don't want to hear it, I don't want to listen to you. I'm going to answer yes, no, yes, no and okay, you're done. All right, and sometimes it's really being able to have those conversations and they're not trying to be annoying recognize what you're doing and what you're going through, but I don't know. I look to both of you for that question, so to speak.
Speaker 3:I think it's, you know, trying to remember during that emotional time where their heart's at Like. Are they trying to better me or are they just trying to break me down? And I think most spouses are trying to better me Now. It's how I receive it right.
Speaker 3:That radical candor, you know. But yeah, I think that's important is where their heart's at when they're saying it. You know I'm probably I'm being disrespectful or maybe that's not the right word, but blunt sometimes when it's not needed and just because I struggled with it at work and it came home with me that day, or whatever. So I'll let you chime in more on that.
Speaker 4:It makes me laugh because this is a part of our marriage that is ongoing and it's something we constantly talk about and work on. Again, we don't have it all together, but Dustin is more blunt and I am more sensitive. I mean, we could not be more opposite, and you've probably heard the saying before opposites attract and then they attack.
Speaker 4:And we are that kind of couple where we have learned like when things get hard, it's easy for us to attack each other. We can both get pretty vocal or whatnot so we've had to learn how to slow that down. And I love what you said, steve, about just the language you know and something we learned in a marriage class that we did through our church. Actually it was called re-engage and they taught us how to stay in your circle. And so when you're communicating or you know sharing things with your partner, you know what does it look like? Almost like you have an invisible hula hoop around you. How do you communicate in a way that's not, you know, pointing a finger, or you did this or you did that, or you're the reason this happened, or da, da, da, da.
Speaker 4:But more of a mature, I would say, response of, hey, I'm feeling hurt, or I'm feeling disconnected, or I'm feeling lonely, I think I need time with you, or I think I need some space. You know, I feel I need and learning to paraphrase that and practice that often, because in the moment, like Dustin said, emotions can be high and we're very quick to hurt each other, and why would we want to do that? This is the most important relationship on earth that we have and it's it's worth the investment and it's worth not giving up, and I think part of this, too, is just recognizing forgiveness that we are going to mess up and that it's really healthy and helpful sometimes to pause and say, hey, I'm sorry that came out wrong, will you forgive me? You know, something as simple as that goes a really long way.
Speaker 2:There's three things that you said that made perfect sense to me. Look at the intention. You know there's days where, like again, you know, I'm trying to be very respectful of spiritual life, but I'm more of a. I'm fucked up today and it's not to mean anyone did that to me. That's just how I speak. But some people are like whoa, and I'm like no, it's just how I feel. I didn't attack anyone, um, and you know I've had those conversation. I'm more of a blunt guy, as you probably figured out too. So, and you're in the same boat, but you talk about your boat, your boat, the one thing that I I really like maybe it's the bald head that does that, I don't know, um, but, um, you can go to youtube, for those who are on are just just on the podcast. Go YouTube, you'll see what I mean. But the one thing I also this is always the hardest conversation in couples counseling Make sure that your safe partner does not become your dumping ground.
Speaker 2:You know I think that that's the other part too is like oh, she's safe, she's not going anywhere. Let me be blunt, and I'm not saying you purposely do this. I'm just saying, for example, or he's my safe place, let me throw shit at him, and that's, that's not. That's not healthy. They might be the safe person, that doesn't mean they deserve to be the dumping ground for everything else. And I think that when you talk about effective strategies for couples, particularly in the first responder world, that's important to realize. Save doesn't mean dumping.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's a difference between sharing your feelings and then, just like you said, dumping on them Like I can share. Hey, ashley, this happened to me today. Here's how I felt, where I get it out still, and then there's, I come home with just the anger and I portray that on her. There's a big difference there and I think that's important with them.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that that's why the strategy that I discuss is if someone's delivered the message the same way you said it, how would you receive it? And sometimes, if someone reacts strongly, I'm like why do you think they responded that way? Well, you call them names without knowing what the hell went wrong or what have you. And I mean, I don't have a particular example here, but the point is is saying safe is not dumping, and that's so important to me. When I talk about couples counseling and I don't do a whole lot of that anymore I find that very difficult. Usually people don't reach out. I find it interesting I tell people like the people who are faith-based are actually the ones who have actually healthier couples counseling than those who come when everything has hit the fan and they're like I need help and be fixed. I'm sorry, my wand's upstairs again.
Speaker 4:I forgot to tell you, yeah, yeah, that is such a good point and I think there's a lot of statistics around that faith piece that you know. Community, you know there are certain things that are so foundational to your success. I'm always a proponent of premarital counseling. I tell couples that are thinking about marriage all the time, hey, your chances of, or the risk of conflict reduces drastically when you do premarital work. You know, because you're talking, you're opening up, you're kind of working through things, and so I think it's, yeah, definitely important and it goes a long way.
Speaker 2:And I always encourage that for people who are, you know, divorced, I say that you know, did you go to counseling before you know you went and got married? Maybe it's time to go to counseling. Just get all that stuff out, so that's on the table. And then, worst case scenario, in six months, if you need a refresher, hey, they're available. They know who you are, they know what's presenting, and with first responders in particular, because I think that the other part too and again, Dustin, you correct me if I'm wrong I feel that there's been so much change in the law enforcement field in the last, specifically in the last five years, but I would argue like 10 to 15 years, especially body cams and stuff like that, that really, that changes so fast. Sometimes you don't even know where your head's at.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, a hundred percent agree. Just like you said, the last five years there's been traumatic changes with how we do things, how we're portrayed Like I'd imagine there's a lot of officers that are having depression or anxiety just because of social media and watching these videos, like the most recent one, I look at it and I'm like there's still a lot that we don't know here. But I can already tell you this scene didn't just start with three or four officers already on scene and you know, know. But we don't get to say that side right and I take and I'll. I know I shouldn't do it, but I'll glance at some of the comments and it upsets me. So yeah, policing in the last five years with social media, body cam, some of the major incidents that have happened have really changed policing.
Speaker 4:But draft, yeah yeah, I would say from like a spousal place too.
Speaker 4:There there's a lot of sadness around that you know and I know a lot of spouses can, or people in the field can acknowledge this too you know, when Dustin first started out in law enforcement, there was so much energy, excitement. You know that there was so much newness and we were just so naive to you know what was to come. You know, nobody sat us down and said, hey, this is what you can expect, this is what he's going to go through, this is what you're going to go through as a spouse. And so that's what prompts us to do these podcasts and open our practice and have these conversations, because we know firsthand how hard it is and we've watched a lot of our friends get a divorce or go through things and not recover. And there's been several incidents at our own PD and in our community where it totally wrecked some families and that's devastating and they just not their fault, it's just being in this line of work and life happens and it's hard to recover. So that's what prompts us to talk about it.
Speaker 2:I think that the other example I use regularly on this podcast and in general is everyone I know but I've worked in different departments, 95% of the guys I've worked with in different departments they want to go work, try to do the community safe, do everything right and then go home. That's all they want. To go work, try to do the community safe, do everything right and then go home. That's all they want to do. There's nothing else they want to do. There's a 5% that are assholes and the same thing for therapists. There's 95% of therapists that you just want to help do their best and they want to go home. Then there's 5% that are assholes. I said the difference is I know a lot of asshole therapists and it didn't even make the bottom page of any website. But as soon as a cop in Ohio just picking on Ohio sorry Ohio does something wrong, then the cops in North Carolina, massachusetts and Washington are all scumbags.
Speaker 4:Yep.
Speaker 2:And that's a pressure that no one could possibly comprehend.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 2:You know, I comprehend it somewhat from working on a regular basis, but I don't know what it is, because that's what I think happens. And then if you don't have that resiliency, you don't have that vulnerability, you don't have those conversations, everything we talked about, then that's what destroys couples.
Speaker 4:Yes, absolutely yeah. It's a lot against you when you are in the first responder world, unfortunately, and especially in law enforcement. I would say it's a, it's a little bit harder, or a lot bit harder, so yeah yeah, I mean, I've seen it too many times.
Speaker 2:We you talked about what you just saw in social media. Something happened in massachusetts, where I'm based out of, and, and you know people like, how is that? That's terrible. I'm like what's the backstory? Everyone who said to me it's terrible. So what's the backstory? Well, I don't know that. Oh, so you're just taking what you're seeing and making the police the bad guy. How about you get the whole story and then tell me what you think? And then most people don't come back and ever talk to me again. Either they're embarrassed or they think I'm crazy or whatever. I don't really care. But there's a backstory and never, ever forget that.
Speaker 2:Yes, you know there's a particular guy that I don't want to mention in Minnesota who did something absolutely terrible, and every law enforcement person I know is absolutely behind that. It was terrible what he did for five minutes the rest of them like. Sometimes you got to know the backstory in order to comprehend what occurred, and that's the other part.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, it's so true we're. We're so quick to label and so quick to judge and we don't, at the end of the day, we don't know the whole story most of the time.
Speaker 2:So and so you know I I know that we're coming on a time now. We've already almost done an hour already. Great conversation, really appreciate both of you. Is there a way for people to like either reach out to you or get to you or anything else?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so my practice is called Valor Counseling Center. We're in Holly Springs, north Carolina, and little town outside of Raleigh, but we serve most of North Carolina and we have a lot of partners just throughout the country. It's kind of the cool thing about the responder world you have brothers and sisters all over, and so it's a really great community and opportunity. But they can go to our website and it's just wwwvalorcounselingcentercom. All one word um, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So I uh, obviously I'm a police officer primarily but I also own a business on the side called right training consulting. You can reach out to me there. I primarily do like church safety, active shooter kind of drills, training and stuff like that. But I do that on the side. You can reach me there. And then something we're not going to reveal too much, but we do have a nonprofit we're starting specifically for first responders and things that we've seen. So quick little backstory A few years ago we had an officer in our area that was shot and killed in the line of duty.
Speaker 3:One of my good friends was involved with that situation. He was at the scene. He had to go find the bad guys that had done it and then finally, the day of the funeral you know, they arrested the bad guys. I think a day or two before the funeral, had to go through all that. And then I talked to him that night or the next night and I was like, hey man, how are you doing? He's like, well, everyone else has kind of put this behind them because they've already had time to process it and I haven't. And me and my wife separately thought, well, what could we do to take that person them and their spouse away for a couple of days and work through that in a safe environment, with mental health, with all this downtime, and provide it for them free of charge. So it's not a barrier to anybody. So that's what we're working towards and in the next few months hopefully we'll have that up and running and be able to share a little bit more.
Speaker 2:Well, I hope you keep me posted on that, because I think that's so important, One of the things I don't I'm going to. I guess I'm going to say it now. There's some people who, you know, for some reason can't work for a while or whatever, and I don't charge. I just treat them because I think it's much more important to get treatment than say, well, where's my payment? I'm not saying I'm poor by any stretch and I'm not saying I'm rich, but I'm just saying that sometimes you got to do what's best, and having a first responder be in a position where they're feeling alone, they can't get treatment, is absolutely terrible. So I'm very appreciative of what you're going to do.
Speaker 2:So I put all this in the show notes, both your websites. You know we went for about an hour. I think it's more than I'm more than happy to say that we're probably going to do two episodes out of this and um, at one point I'd love to have you back on if you want to come back, Um, especially when you know. Good luck on the 10 and the trip to Ecuador. Thank you for doing that too. Appreciate that. And next, and maybe you can talk about your nonprofit next time and feel free to reach out to me whenever that happens, but I wanted to thank you for your time and your openness, because this was a great interview.
Speaker 3:Hey, thanks, steve. I appreciate it and you're very easy to talk to, so that was nice.
Speaker 4:And thank you for what you do. This is really important, so we appreciate you.
Speaker 3:We're glad that there's more people like you that are sharing it from the first responder side, because up until recently it's felt like we just kept getting beat on and beat on.
Speaker 3:You mentioned the situation in Minnesota, milwaukee, and I remember being down here and people calling me names and I'm like I don't even. I have nothing to do with this and one day I actually broke down. It was obviously this was right middle of COVID or beginning of COVID really and I was at the grocery store. I was at our Harris Teeter, I was just getting a sub for lunch, right, I'm in uniform, I'm not talking to anybody and this lady there's lines everywhere, you know there's six feet back and she grabs me she's an employee there, walks me to the front and checks out and says thank you, and I literally started crying at the time because nobody had been nice. You know, outside we're already being. You know we're being called Nazis for the whole COVID thing and not letting people do anything. We're being called, you know, racist cops for this scene that I had nothing to do with.
Speaker 2:And it was. That was terrible. So just that one little act of kindness. So thank you, steve, for what you do. To share that a little bit, thank you, and I'll never stop until well, hopefully you know, for several years. But thank you for what you do and thank you for, like I said, being an officer is quite a thankless job right now and I truly appreciate you. Being a therapist who worked with first responders, finding competence, culturally competent, first responder therapist is extremely hard. I'm working on a group here in Massachusetts, but that is one of the hardest things to do. And if just to plug something, the Second Alarm Project out of Florida. They do work a lot with the Carolinas too, too, so that's another thing I would say you said is that um spelled out?
Speaker 2:second, yeah, it's. I said I think it's the number two, second, okay, but yeah, I don't get any. By the way, in case anybody wonders, on this podcast I get zero dollars and zero zero cents from that. Uh, it's the second alarm project. It's a great little uh app and they do if you want to do your self-assessments which is what I love the most about that app and so that way you can know if you may need some help. Just like when I do my CIT trainings, I always do the trauma one and I do the ACEs, the adverse child events, and I say, oh, look at the questions and then I pause purposefully for five minutes and then I look like, hey guys, how many of you scored over four here? And no one wants to really answer. I said so, you didn't answer. That's highly likely, you're all. The average is seven for police. So just for the record, just wanted to mention, and I think that that's the stuff you got to do to get them thinking.
Speaker 2:But I feel like I plugged too many things. I think I didn't want to take any spotlight away. So thank you again and, for those who are listening right now, looking forward to seeing you for episode 218. So thank you.
Speaker 4:Yeah, thanks, steve.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Steve. Well, that completes episode 217. Hope you join me for episode 218 on the next episode. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Please like, subscribe and follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful and, as a reminder, this podcast is for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor for consultation. If you are in a mental health crisis, call 988 for assistance. This number is available in the United States and Canada.
