Resilience Development in Action

E. 229 Grief, Growth, And The Uniform (Part 1 of 2)

• Steve Bisson, Stephanie Simpson • Season 12 • Episode 229

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What if the hardest grief in your life isn’t about death, but about change—leaving a team, dropping a title, or stepping away from a community that once defined you? That’s where our conversation with coach and educator Stephanie Simpson begins, and it’s where many first responders secretly live: in the space between who we were and who we’re becoming.

Stephanie shares how her evolution from dancer and teacher to professional coach reshaped her understanding of loss. We dig into why “moving on” often backfires and how “moving forward” honors what mattered while making room for growth. Instead of chasing reasons or culprits, we explore a different order of operations: feel first, then learn. Stephanie offers embodied practices—locating sensations, sculpting feelings, and observing them—to shift from intellectualizing to processing. The result isn’t soft; it’s strategic. Emotions become data you can use under pressure.

We also reframe stress for police, fire, EMS, and dispatch. Stress isn’t the enemy; unmanaged stress is. Stephanie, who teaches stress science to future first responders, explains how too much strain overwhelms and too little erodes purpose, and why internal stressors—perfectionism, shame, the inner critic—often do more damage than any single call. From Inside Out’s portrayal of panic to practical reset routines, we map how to notice, name, and navigate emotions without losing your edge, at work or at home.

If you’ve felt the ache of leaving a role, the pull to find someone to blame, or the pressure to “just get over it,” this conversation offers a more honest path. Subscribe, share this episode with a teammate who needs it, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway so we can keep bringing you tools that actually help.

You can reach Stephanie the following ways: 

Website - www.stephanie-simpson.com   
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephaniesimpsoncoaching/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/stephaniesimpsoncoaching/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/StephanieSimpsonCoaching

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SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to Resilience Development in Action with Steve Bisson. This is the podcast dedicated to first responder mental health, helping police, fire, EMS, dispatchers, and paramedics create better growth environments for themselves and their teams. Let's get started.ai.

SPEAKER_03:

You heard me talk about it. I'm gonna keep on talking about it because I love it. I've had about a year and a half, 18 months practice with it, and I still enjoy it. And it saves me time and it saves me energy. Free.ai takes your note, makes a transcri from what you're talking about a client, just press record. And it does either transcript, it does a subjective, and an objective with a letter if needed for your client. And for whoever might. So for$99 a month, it saves me so much time that it's worthwhile. And if you do it for a whole year, guess what? You get 10% off. More importantly, this is what you got because you are my audience that listens to resilience development in action. If you do listen to this and you want to use free. Put in the code Steve50 in the promo code area. Steve50. And you will get$50 off in addition to everything we just talked about. Get free from writing your notes. Get free from even writing your transcripts. Use that to your advantage. Free.ai, a great service. Go to get free.ai and you will get one of the best services that will save you time and money. And I highly encourage you. Well, hi everyone, and welcome to episode 229. If you haven't listened to episode 228, and the supplemental from that is Lisa Trusis, who is a dispatcher. She talked about her coaching, her own life experience with substance use in her family, and I hope you listen to that. But episode 229, I gotta tell you that this is like almost an annual thing. But truly, me and Steph were privately talking about it beforehand that we need to do this more often. Just privately, me and her. But um Stephanie Simpson has been on my podcast probably every season I've ever had. Stephanie is probably someone that for those who are new to resilience development in action, you'll say, Well, what's the coach doing on here? Well, I'm gonna tell you why, because she's gonna tell you why coaching is so important for so many people. Well, more importantly, um I've never met someone with such a kind heart who gets it and can also be able to deliver hard stuff without hurting people's feelings. So um there's a lot of respect that I have for her, and I hope she knows that. And if she didn't, she just heard me. So Stephanie Simpson, welcome to Finding Your Way Through Therapy.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you. I feel like I'm a little teary-eyed hearing all of that. So and the feeling is mutual.

SPEAKER_03:

Well but I did I didn't say it for making you teary-eyed. I just wanted to talk to you apart. You know, I and the other thing too is before we got started, I want to tell everyone in my audience as the end of the year approaches, sometimes I don't get any messages for time and time again, time again from how the how you like this. And I think uh I was inspired by our conversation to say, hey, listen, just give me some feedback, even if it's good, bad, and even it's just a note. There's a you can just do it from the app, you can do it directly from wherever you're using, and uh please give me some feedback because I like to have uh that idea. So that was my little vulnerable moment for me to share. But now that I talked you up, now it's time for you to talk yourself up. And maybe for those of you who haven't listened to, I think it's nine episodes that you've been on. People who haven't listened to one of the nine episodes, maybe you can do a quick intro from that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, wow, that is nine because we did some one-on-ones and then we've done some group ones. Yeah, wow, okay. Um, so who am I? Well, I'm based in New York. Um, I am a certified professional coach. I always like to say that I've gotten to this part of my life, though, from being a performer, first and foremost. And so that's, I think, actually how we first got connected is uh one of your very good friends who also I think maybe guest hosts a couple of the um podcasts. We went to college together and we danced together. And so dance and the and the performing arts have always been a big part of my life. And uh as I continued on my like journey of being a human, but also just being curious about people and and why people, some people feel more confident or perform better than others. I was just always really curious about that. And that led me to do some psychology stuff and ended up, you know, starting my own coaching and consulting business. And and really also, I guess the other part, I'm not doing a great job at talking about myself right now, but um, what I'm very curious about and is how can people feel more whole and like themselves and and really live satisfying, fulfilling lives? And I use those words very intentionally because I think a lot of times, myself included, is like, I want to feel happy, I want to feel this. And many years ago, I was like, oh, happiness is like this thing we're always trying to get, but never get. But how can we feel full? How can we feel satisfied? How can we find joy and really wanting to like I just imagine like if the world, if everyone really felt those things, like how different things would be, right? That a lot of the disconnection we have is because we ourselves are not feeling full and satisfied. And and I was really like, when I stepped back at different times in my life, I was like, we don't have spaces for people to be able to share and open, openly talk about that. And so that was really an inspiration for I saw myself being able to do it with the arts in a certain sort of way, and I was like, how can I do this in a in a bigger way for people who aren't necessarily consider themselves dancers or actors? And that's how I found myself where I am now.

SPEAKER_03:

I think you did a pretty good job, but I think you're still underselling yourself. One of the things that Stephanie said to me a long time ago is uh I said, you know, I'm not a performer, I don't have like that voice or that can't dance. And she said to me, You entertain people through podcasting, and people are interested in that. So you are a performer. And it always made me think that we're all performing in some ways, too, right? When we're in public, and I speak particularly with my guys from the first responder world, we have that persona, we have that position, and then we have our private life. And being happy all the time is a little hard sometimes, but that is the performance that we do. Steph is an amazing coach. She's worked with schools, she's worked with different places, and she definitely is underselling herself. So please go to our website. But I think Steph is someone who has worked with a large variety of people. And I know that she's been on when it was more of a general psychology one, but ultimately I I think that for my first responder people, you really need to hear her talk about different things to understand that she has a range that is pretty amazing and truly appreciate her. So please go to her website. But I just want to play her up even more because I truly do admire her. One of the things that we've talked about uh off air is uh grief and the change and everything else. You know, my my my world of first responders uh have a lot to do with grief and loss. And you know, most people think that grief is when someone dies. But I think it might be important for us to have a discussion possibly about, you know, I know that for you there's been a lot of significant change about your relationship with grief. So can you tell us how you got there and what your thoughts are?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, well, one that one of the things you already said is like I felt like the story I had in my head was like grief only happens when someone dies. And while I have dealt with loss in different ways in my life, the last, I would say the last five years, I've really thought about grief in a very different way. And that actually we're all going through some sort of grieving process all the time. And and when we think about like grief is loss, there's so many things that that can go into that category of loss. So, like even though I chose to leave the the school I was teaching at that to to scale my business. This was like now four years ago, that was an intentional choice that I made. What I didn't realize was the amount of grieving I was gonna go through after that. And it was actually something I learned more about in therapy, in the sense of like, here was an identity that I had for so long. Um, one of those identities being a teacher, one of those identities being a dancer or a performer or whatever it was. And by me shifting, and I look at it as like an evolution of my career, I was like, oh, I don't do those things anymore. And there's a part of me that's different, but I was also grieving the community that I wasn't in anymore. And that was something I was not prepared for at all. Like as much as I was excited to start on this new venture of mine, I didn't realize that like not being in that community. While I was ready to maybe like evolve from that community, it was just, I don't know, I just, it wasn't in my radar that, like, oh, that's a grieving thing. And it actually comes up a lot in my work with the my um clients. I will listen to them sometimes and I'll be like, I'm kind of hearing, and you can tell me if I'm wrong. It sounds like there's a lot of grieving happening. Like you had this idea of something and it's not happening, or you made this change and you were excited about the change, but there's something that you let go of. And and they'll I can see the change in their face that just goes, oh my God, that is it. Like that is it. And I do think it's something, and I love that you're talking about it more, that we don't talk enough about in our culture that like change means that something has to like die and leave, right? Um, we're recording this, I don't know when it'll come out, but in October, right? So we're in foliage season where the leaves die. And I always try to remind myself and clients like that has to happen, but like literally something is dying in order for things to grow. And both can be true, right? We can be excited about growing into something and also be grieving the thing that we're leaving behind. It's not an either or. And so that's that's been a big part of like the last few years of my own journey and also just like mirroring that back when I hear it with other people that like this is this is okay. It's okay to to grieve. It's okay to feel multiple things at the same time because guess what? You are. So it's okay to name that. And then I would say the other big thing that comes up is like, and this, I feel like it's a little cliche, but it's true, is that like it's not linear, right? Grieving is not linear. And I will say for some of the like more personal things that have happened in my life over the last couple of years, while I know that I've grown a lot and I've let go a lot and I've moved forward a lot in certain things. There are moments where something will come up that will remind me of someone or something. And I'll just like all of a sudden, I'm just like, why am I crying? And I've gotten to a better place where I go, oh, it's okay for me. This this is part of the grieving. Like there's another layer that needs to come out, and that's okay. Just shed that layer, right? That's another leaf that needs to fall and not judge myself about that. And so I do see with people that it's like, well, I should be over this by now, or this should not affect me by now, and being able to go, it's okay that it's still affecting you. You're human. And and that like it may affect you forever, but the way you respond to it will be different because you're showing up for yourself.

SPEAKER_03:

I couldn't agree more. Number one. Number two, I always argue that grief never ends. And what I mean by that, it gets easier, but it never gets easy because there's, you know, there's gonna be an anniversary, there's gonna be a situation, and you're gonna, like you said, the waterworks or the feeling uncomfortable or what have you. I think that the other part about grief that people have to understand is that we gotta be able to do so. You know, when people talk about past relationships, for example, or friendships, or uh family members who you don't talk to anymore. A lot of people like, oh, I just want to move on from that. No, you're grieving it. Stop moving on from stuff that you're grieving. And that doesn't mean you won't miss them once in a while. I've I've had some terrible relationships uh as I pre-interview talking to Stephanie about a particular inter interaction. I don't really grieve them, but I also learned a lot from it. And I think that that's part of the grief process too is learning from that loss. Uh I don't know if you agree, but that's what I totally do.

SPEAKER_01:

And as I'm hearing you talk about that, it in in this might feel very therapy coachy talk, but like we have to feel it before we can then step away from it to then look at it and learn from it. Right. And so I also like I think sometimes people don't want to feel the thing. They just want to like bypass the feeling and go, okay, I'm moving on from it, or yeah, I learned this thing, or like whatever, and intellectualizing it as opposed to like feeling it first. And I know I do this to myself sometimes, but like feeling the thing and really being in the emotion to allow the emotion to like process so that I can then step back and go, okay, and like I'm seeing how like I learned this or I grew in this way or blah, blah, blah. I've also, and I don't know why I've chosen this, but like I feel like moving on when I've been using that word for myself kind of feels a little like avoidant dismissive. And so I've been using the words moving forward. And for me, and I and I know words can mean different things for other people. For me, when I say, oh, I'm moving forward, I feel like I'm trying to integrate everything so that I can move forward as opposed to, oh, I'm moving on and that's like in the past and like that's in a box and blah, blah, blah. Moving forward felt like, oh, I'm taking everything, I'm integrating it, and I'm continuing to move forward. That doesn't necessarily mean though, that that stuff is not still somewhere in my body or anything like that.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, it's not necessarily grief, but I want to give an example. When I did the intro, I'm so used to saying finding your way through therapy with you. That's what I said. It's resilience development and action. And it's still missing a little bit of like love, my work with the first responder world. Um, but I was talking to you privately uh beforehand. I also kind of like the finding your way through therapy. Do I like to hear about people uh talking about coaching? I had someone last year. I was talking about coaching uh D UN athletes and uh professional athletes. Yeah, that's cool. Does it relate anymore to what I'm doing? No, so I do miss, and there's a particular person and Erica, if you're listening and thinking about you. But that's grief. That's missing someone. And even though me and Erica are not friendly like we are, I just met Erica for the podcast and then we exchanged a few times, but nothing major. But it's still grief. I used to call it finding your way through therapy. That's called resilience development is grief. I think that what people and misunderstand is that it's not about theath death or getting better at it. It's just you kind of like acknowledge it, and that's why I want to acknowledge it. I wish I did that on purpose, but I did not. I swear to God.

SPEAKER_02:

There you go. That's so funny. I didn't even catch it at the beginning.

SPEAKER_03:

But yeah, my my perfectionism is in the way, but that's a different podcast.

SPEAKER_01:

So I could talk hours about perfectionism.

SPEAKER_03:

I I think that with grief, the other part too that people tend to want to do is I need to understand grief. Well, I can tell you personally I don't understand it. I have an idea, but I don't know how to I don't understand it. I know that you're working on a lot of understanding of the grief yourself. Is there something that you think that people would like should know about grief that maybe they they don't it's not necessarily um intuitive for them to know?

SPEAKER_01:

That's a great question. I think what comes up to mind for me, and both of this is like my own journey with grief, but also like holding space for other people that are working through it, is the more that we're trying to figure it out, the like more that it I would, I would, I want to say the problem, but the more that we try to figure it out almost like the bigger it gets as opposed to like allowing ourselves to feel it, right? Like, so I myself with my therapist talk a lot about feeling things versus intellectualizing it. And so I feel even when I'm trying to like, well, what was this for? Blah, blah, blah, or like why is this still here, or what does it mean, or where is it coming from? Like, that's intellectualizing it as opposed to just feeling it. And then if we're really feeling it, then we'll learn about it, I guess. I don't know. That's like a that was a rough draft impromptu sentence there. But like, I even just think about going actually as I'm thinking about this, I had an image that popped up in my head about dance, is like the the dance work that I do mostly now in a much smaller version is more contemporary modern dance. And so there is kind of like, well, let's try this movement on and let's feel what's happening in the body. Where do I want to go next? And it is very much like listen to the body and move and feel what's happening. Then let's figure out what's happening, right? And is there something there we want to explore more? And I almost wonder like if we took that approach with grief where it's like, well, let's just feel it. Like, let's draw it, let's shake it out, let's cry, let's, you know, where is it in the body? I do a lot of work with people on like taking whatever sensation they're feeling in the body. Like I'll say, like, well, where are you feeling that grief right now? Okay. And then we create a sculpture out of it. And then I'll be like, okay, now put that sculpture in front of you. What are you seeing? What are you noticing? And then being able to like be have that sculpture come from them and then bring it out of them to then be able to look at it, then they're getting more information, but they had to feel it and be the sculpture first. They couldn't start, right? We couldn't start with the intellectualizing. We had to start with the embodiment and the feeling of it and the process. So I guess the big word that I guess I would say is the process, like being in process with grief is gonna give you, while it's I'm not saying it's easy, right? It's hard. And depending on what you're working through, is gonna have its different levels. But like being in process with it is actually gonna be more fruitful on the other end than trying to figure it out right away. Like the figuring it out, even my body goes like tense, right? And then it's creating more stress and more frustration and therefore more grief.

SPEAKER_03:

And I'm gonna joke around with you. This is just a joke, but to keep my keep my audience in mind. You lost everyone when you start talking about feelings. Um that's that's a no-no in my but for most people who listen to me also respect me, hopefully enough to know that feelings are part of it, because I certainly think that that's absolutely natural. I wrote that down because I thought it was a funny thing. One of the things that I I kind of remind people is that everyone, if they have an ex and you've ever been broken up with, and if you tell me you've never been broken up with, I call you a liar. Uh but when you've been broken up with, you always want to know the reason why. And I always ask someone which answer will make you happy.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh yeah, none of them.

SPEAKER_03:

But that's grief, right? Because we're we're not dealing with our feelings, but you need to logically understand why someone felt the way they did. But you can't logisticate feelings, if that's a word. But I think that that's one of the things that happens a whole lot. I mean, and that's the example I give about grief. Grieve the relationship. Even if I if I was dating Jane Doe and Jane Doe says to me, I broke up with you because of how you talk to your family. Well, what does that mean? Now I'd I'd have another question. But that was an event. Why does she make it who I am? And then suddenly I'm like in these rabbit holes of not feeling anything, but blaming the other person. I think that for me, one of the grief things and outside of like loss of people we look for blame. I think you talk about it. I think one of the things with grief is people look for blame. Well, I look at again, I'm pointing to you first responders. They need to find the culprit, so to speak, whether it's a relationship or what have you. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, that reminds me of like it because when we're it's a sense of control, right? When we emotions, how do I want to say this? We do have control over our emotions. I will say many of us, if not probably all of us, were never taught actually how to do that, though, right? So it's a very foreign concept to us. And so understandably, many of us are not good at it, right? And and so then we look at emotions as being like, um, certain emotions are good, certain emotions are bad. And yet that's not true either. Like emotions are neither positive nor negative. They're actually information, right? Like you mentioned at the beginning, like wanting to get feedback from people. Feedback is just information, right? It's like how and it's what do we do with that information that can create maybe a positive or negative sort of thing if we want to continue to go into that binary. I think as humans, we tend to want to know so that we can control it, right? And when we're feeling something, that's uncomfortable. We've not been taught how to do it, especially if it's a very heightened emotion. Because listen, I work with people who like can get really excited about something really good. And that's also like uh it can be an uncontrollable excitement that then ends up backfiring in some sort of way because they're not managing that, you know. So it's like it can go on both sides of the spectrum. And so the easiest way to do that is to go, well, who can I blame? Because then I can have I'll have answers, then I can control what's happening, right? As opposed to like pausing and feeling whatever's feeling and being like, I mean, I'm learning, I'm working on this a lot too, is like pausing and being like, what am I actually feeling? And for someone who's like gone through a lot of training and is pretty open to emotions and all that, there are some times where I'm having a really hard time actually verbalizing what the actual emotion is, right? And and the emotions that I think we all learn more about are like, well, anger. And it's like, okay, but what's under the anger?

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

And like, or I'm I'm feeling, I'm feeling really happy. Well, what's actually under happy? Well, I feel connected or I feel supported or I feel recognized or valued or whatever. Those are like the deeper things that are actually like in our body. I think it's funny because the the the mug I'm using today is from Inside Out Two.

SPEAKER_03:

I I love that movie. I love it too.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, and so I mean, and actually that character itself, right? Like she just wants to control and control and control and control until she turns into until she has a panic attack and then like has this, you know, whole spiral and she turns into like a tornado, right? And what does she need? She needs all the other people, all the other emotions to like hug her and just bring her down. But at the same time, and spoiler alert for anybody who hasn't seen it, at the end of the movie, like there are moments where like anxiety is necessary, and they're like, go into your big chair, get your tea, and worry about the tests that she needs to take. But the rest of the stuff you don't need to worry about, right? So I do think that control becomes that part, and then blame is the thing that is the control is the thing we want. And so then the external thing becomes blame.

SPEAKER_03:

I agree wholeheartedly. And for those of you who haven't seen Inside Out 2, it's the best depiction ever of an anxiety attack that I've ever seen in my life. I can explain it to you verbally, but go see the movie. Um it happens in a penalty box for those people who need it to be manly. She got it, she got a penalty. She's sitting in a penalty box in a hockey episode. Go listen to it. That part I won't spoil. But to me, that was whoever they're consulting, amazing, amazing people. Um because I've never seen it that well represented.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. It was a very that movie was a very cathartic experience for me. Like watching that on screen. And this is where I think there's such power in in narratives, right? Like whether it's reading or podcast or or watching a TV show or a movie or anything like that. Watching that and being like, oh, I've experienced that. I mean, my body just like actually released, and I was like crying uncontrollably. I bought both my parents next to me, and they're all just like, oh, this is great. And I thought it was like, wait a second, have you not had that experience too?

SPEAKER_03:

I mean, I I was at uh I went with my girlfriend and my two kids for inside out too at uh drive-in. Oh, that's in Mendon Mass, and I'm watching the movie in the in the where when where we had our chairs in the back. And when they showed the panic attack and a couple of things in the movie, and I started like having tears in my eyes. And of course, my kids and my girlfriend being very supportive go, Why the hell are you crying? And I'm like, I don't, I'll explain later. And I didn't personalize that because I get where they were coming from, but ultimately there's a lot of that movie that explains. And go watch Inside Out One in the first one because that's the whole message. No spoiler alert, but you'll learn that all emotions are needed. Anger is no good or bad, happiness is not good or bad, fear is not good or bad. It's what you do with it. And I think that that's the message that you're trying to say because you talked about the process. Who gives a crap about the process if you're not able to observe your emotion? I mean, at a deeper Buddhist level, what I'm learning right now, and that's the learning technique because I'll learn every day is when I have an emotion, not to express it, but to observe where's the root of that emotion? Where is it coming from? And then saying, okay, is this the appropriate place or not? Am I perfect at that? Absolutely not. I still struggle regularly. But learning to observe your emotions is so key.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. This what came up for me as you were talking about that, and something I didn't share about, like what I do. So my second master's, which is in psych clinical psychology, my thesis was all around stress. And so I work with a lot of people on like how to have a healthier relationship with stress, um, and actually teach a class at a college here in New York at John Jay College of Criminal Justice. So I actually teach a lot of future first responders. And we talk about stress. Well, the whole class is about stress, but really about like how are you using this in all areas of your life and that stress is also a necessary thing, right? And actually to live sustainable, fulfilling, satisfying lives, we do need a certain amount of stress. But when stress becomes too overwhelming and too much, that becomes a problem or a challenge. But also when we don't have enough of it and we're not challenged and engaged in like a healthy way, it also creates like more depression or numbing out or anything like that. And emotions are a big part of that because when we're not, as you said, pausing and observing our emotions, if we avoid them, that is literally the like freeze and the flight version of fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. If we're overperformative or we decide we're gonna fight back all the time, that's the fight and the fawn, right? And so we need some, we need that to be alive. Like there's a reason our stress cycle is still a thing in us as humans. Like we do need it, but people don't realize how much daily things either they're keeping internally. And I think what a big shift for a lot of my students are they think that all stressors are external things, right? And they're not, they're internal as well, right? So if you're not recognizing your emotions, if you're not like the we were talking beforehand, like the voices in our head, my little gremlin who has a name, right? Like when I'm not acknowledging that that is the gremlin talking and not me. And as you reminded me of like sharing that with other people for them to be like, you do realize that's not you, Stephanie, that's your gremlin. Like if we don't, if we're not building tools for ourselves to do that, that's the internal stress that over time will actually kill us. Not the external, like there can be an external thing that happens. And yet we actually are probably better at dealing with the external things because we have these plans and we know how to do them, blah, blah, blah, and like all the logistics. But the internal stuff, if we are not finding ways to have a relationship with that and an ongoing relationship with that, learning, curious, all of that. That's the stuff that over time actually kills us. Literally, physiologically and biologically.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, this is a good place. We're gonna pause a little bit here. We're gonna go to uh the second part. We're gonna stop here, but we're gonna start a second part for Friday. We're gonna release it. Um, but I wanted to thank you right now, but I want to get back on this stuff.

SPEAKER_00:

Please like, subscribe, and follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for informational, educational, and entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor for consultation. If you are in a mental health crisis, call 988 for assistance. This number is available in the United States and Canada.

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Steve Bisson

Host
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Courtney Romanowski

Co-host
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Stephanie Simpson

Guest