Resilience Development in Action: First Responder Mental Health

E.239 How A Fire Chief-Turned-Therapist Is Changing First Responder Mental Health

• Steve Bisson, Jeff Dill • Season 13 • Episode 239

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Strength without silence. That’s the thread running through our conversation with Jeff Dill, a former battalion chief turned licensed counselor and the founder of the Firefighter Behavioral Health Alliance. Jeff has spent years validating firefighter and EMS suicide data, building workshops from real-world stories, and leading behavioral health efforts for Las Vegas Fire and Rescue. He brings hard-won clarity on what actually helps: simple language, daily habits, and policies that protect people when the job wears them thin.

We break down the internal size up, a practical check-in that asks, “Why am I acting this way? Why am I feeling this way?” It helps catch irritability, isolation, and sleep loss before they morph into bigger risks. Jeff draws a vital line between PTSD and moral injury—showing how betrayal, guilt, and shame often sit beneath the surface while treatment chases fear and trauma. Forgiveness becomes a survival skill, not a pass for bad behavior, and we talk about how to practice it without forgetting or restoring unsafe trust.

From there, we get tactical. Sleep debt, high call volumes, and 24-hour shifts push good people into impulsive decisions. Cultural brainwashing tells responders to be brave, strong, and self-reliant—until that story keeps them from getting help. We dig into the data, including surprising patterns among women in fire and EMS, and outline what a proactive program looks like: family education, annual mental health checkups, vetted clinicians outside insurance for privacy, real-time aftercare after tough calls, and telehealth to reach rural members. Leaders will hear budget-smart ways to protect training from the chopping block, and crews will gain language for checking on a partner without making it awkward.

You can reach Jeff at the following websites:

For the Firefighter Behavioral Alliance (FFBA), please go to: https://www.ffbha.org 

For the moral injury white paper, download it by clicking: https://www.ffbha.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Moral-Injury-White-Paper-2-9-23.pdf

 For the Firefighter Behavioral Alliance (FFBA) Facebook page, please go to https://www.facebook.com/FirefighterBehavioralHealthAlliance


If you’re a firefighter, EMT, dispatcher, or cop—or you love someone who is—you’ll walk away with tools you can use today and a clearer picture of how to build a healthier culture tomorrow. Subscribe, share this with your crew, and leave a review so others can find it. You’re not alone.



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SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to Resilience Development in Action with Database Holmes. This is a podcast dedicated to first responder mental health, helping police, fire, EMS, dispatchers, and paramedics create better growth environments for themselves and their team. Let's get started.ai.

SPEAKER_02:

You heard me talk about it. I'm gonna keep on talking about it because I love it. I've had about a year and a half, 18 months practice with it, and I still enjoy it. And it saves me time and it saves me energy. Free.ai takes your note, makes a trans what you're talking with a client, just press record. And it does either transcript, it does a subjective, and an objective with a letter if needed for your client. And for whoever might need it. So for$99 a month, it saves me so much time that it's worthwhile. And if you do it for a whole year, guess what? You get 10% off. More importantly, that's what you got. Because you are my audience that to resilience development. If you do that and you want to use free.ai, put in the code C50 in the promo code area. And you will get$50 off in addition to everything we just talked about. Get free from writing your notes. Get free from even writing your transcripts. Use that to your advantage. Free.ai, a great service. Go to get free.ai and you will get one of the best services that will save you time and money. And I highly encourage you to do that. Well, hi everyone, and welcome to episode 239. If you haven't listened to episode 238, it was with Alexa still a great conversation. She's a mental health therapist, first responder, mental health therapist, her family is in it. So great interview. Go back and listen. But for episode 239, I have someone that I truly am excited to talk to. I've heard his name many times in different circles. And what happened is he happens to be a very good friend of a good a friend of mine. So we're a friend of a friend, so I guess we are friends in some ways. Blight Landry, who's been on this show before, you've heard her a few times. So but this is someone who, you know, is exactly what I've always wanted as a first responder who became a therapist and who understands both sides of the story, which I think is really, really rare. And we get we're getting closer to having more people like that. But I think that when I think about the West Coast and how far along you are with the mental health part, I think that the person that gets the most feedback, good positive feedback is Jeff Dill. And Jeff, welcome to Resilience Development in Action.

SPEAKER_01:

Dave, you know, I'm absolutely honored to be here. And uh hopefully some of your uh listeners will pick up a few gems uh from what I've learned these past 16 years and apply it to their lives and to their organizations.

SPEAKER_02:

The goal of this podcast is really to get mental health and first responders to understand it that the checkout from the neck up once a year is as good as the physical checkup that we do. And you think about firefighters, it's basic to do so. Why aren't we doing that for mental health? That's always been my goal. Uh so I'm sure they're gonna learn a few things from you.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I appreciate that. Uh, I can tell you that Las Vegas Fire and Rescue, uh, they have an annual physical and an annual mental health checkup. So we're very proactive out here.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I was in I was in a meeting with someone from the state senate in Massachusetts a couple months ago, and they were telling me that apparently there is something in MGL mass general law that says that first responders, police, firefighter, paramedics, emts, and dispatchers have a right to one behavioral health visit a year. And they ask me, hey, Steve, how often do they use that? I'm like, honestly, this is the first time I ever heard of it. It's been out since 2022. So I'm looking into that, and it really does exist, number one. And number two, why aren't we using that and why are people slightly silent about that? I think I'm gonna push it with the unions around here. They're pretty strong in the Northeast. So I think yes, they are.

SPEAKER_01:

So I and I hope they take advantage of it. Uh it's absolutely necessary. And anyone on our peer support team, it's in our policy. You know, we recommend one to two sessions uh a year and uh we will pay for it.

SPEAKER_02:

So and I think that that's where we gotta start. I mean, I am gonna I can go on and on, but you know, like I because I again for me it's the other part too, is that if you know, I can't remember which organization, but they if you do the sex crime detective stuff, you gotta go quarterly to go see a shrink to like get your head in in the right place. And I think that that's should be standard for a lot of that stuff because it's really hard stuff to watch.

SPEAKER_01:

It is, no doubt about it.

SPEAKER_02:

But you know, I feel like I were we're already friends because we're a friend of a friend, but maybe my audience doesn't know who Jeff Dill is. So how about you tell them who you are?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I I appreciate it. Uh I'll try to keep it to the readers' digest. Uh I was born and raised in Rochester, New York. Uh, I didn't after I graduated high school in 79. I really didn't want to work at Kodak or Xerox. I didn't want to be in a factory, didn't want to go to college. So I moved out to Chicago to live with my uncle, my dad's brother. Uh, met my wife a few months after that. Uh we got married in 1980. We just celebrated 45 years of marriage this past Saturday. Congratulations. And uh, so I'd I'd always tried to find out who I was. So I once we got married and then we started our family. I always had a full-time job. I drove a truck for a school district, but I was always looking for myself. Uh, I was in broadcasting, I ran a sports director for a radio station outside of Chicago here. I used to cover the Chicago Bulls, used to interview Michael Jordan down in the locker rooms. I worked for the uh Baltimore Orioles, their minor league ball club out there in the Midwest. I worked part-time 10 years on the PGA tour, building clubs for the for the players. I'd stand at the greens and build that. And when I reflect back, I think about all those experiences, how it molded me to who I was. And so finally in in 1990, I became a volunteer firefighter in the Northwest suburbs of Chicago. I went career in '95 and moved up pretty quickly within the ranks. I was a battalion chief, probably the longest. And my life was going along pretty good as a firefighter when in 2005 Hurricane Katrina hit. And Division I outside of Chicago sent down numerous firefighters to help out our brothers and sisters down in New Orleans. And when they came back, including a couple from our department, and when they came back, they showed me videos of the devastation, the destruction. They were picking up bodies in the streets and they were struggling. Of course, this is 2005, and we never talked about behavior health in the first responder world. So I thought, well, how can I get back to my brothers and sisters? I went back, got my master's degree, and became a licensed counselor. And in 2009, my wife Karen and I, we founded counseling services for firefighters, and we started training counselors and chaplains. Hey, you want to work with us? You need to understand this. We're a little different. Not that it's wrong from my point of view, but we're a little different. When in early 2010, I started receiving emails and phone calls from all over the world saying, Do you do anything about firefighter suicides? I said, firefighter suicides? No one ever talked about that. I started doing a little research and found out we might have an issue here. And that's when in 2010, my wife and I, we founded Firefighter Behavioral Health Alliance. Just a small little nonprofit. We had three goals: educational workshops, a scholarship program for children, a fire and DMS. And then our probably our most endearing is our annual weekend retreat for family survivors, one of the most powerful weekends you can ever imagine. I imagine. So we've uh we we've accomplished that. I've traveled about 1.5 million miles over the last 12 years across the U.S. and Canada. You know, we have 14 different types of workshops. And what makes us different is that those workshops, 90% of them come from our brothers and sisters and the family survivors. They're not things I just pulled off the internet. But also in 2010, we started tracking and validating firefighter and EMS suicides in America. And if anyone's listening, you've ever seen any data or heard the phrase there's been more suicides, firefighter suicides than line of duty does and articles, it all comes from us. And uh so we we can talk about the data as the as the meeting goes forward here. But uh that's and then then on July 1st of 2021, I became the behavior health administrator for Las Vegas Fire and Rescue. So that's that's it. Uh Reader's Digest snippet.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, that's what I was gonna say. I I think that there's a lot more to be said, but that's oh there there is. Absolutely. I thank you for what you do, by the way. It really was not some like most most of my listeners know I don't blow smoke up people's butt because I don't believe in that. I tell the truth. And I really was happy to meet you, and I'm happy we had a friend, you know. One of the things that I like to start off with the besides getting an intro is sometimes people want to get certain things out in a bot in a podcast. What should people remember from this podcast that you want people to really remember from anything we said? If they forget my name, your name, and everyone else's name.

SPEAKER_01:

I want them to remember the phrase internal size up, because what that means is that every one of us should be asking ourselves two questions. Why am I acting this way? Why am I feeling this way? And the best thing that we can do is listen to others because they see us better than we will ever see ourselves. Like I said, my wife of 45 years knows my tone of voice, my character, my body language, my inflection in my voice. She knows when I'm struggling or had a bad day. But we also have to learn to listen to our bodies. It's telling us you're not sleeping, you're getting angrier a lot quicker, you've turned to some type of addiction, maybe, your lack of communications. It's telling us your sleep issues. We need help. We have to listen to it. And that's what I want people to understand is that internal size up, and you can do it with a loved one as well. At the end of the night, you sit down and say, Hey, what emotion did I display today? How did it affect you, my loved one, and how can we work together to resolve that? So that's that's a phrase I coined many, many years ago. I was actually heading up to a uh fire as a battalion chief, and and one of the firefighters says, Well, this is the size up of what we have, and it just it just hit me right away. Why not? How about an internal size up of how we're feeling? So that's that's one key phrase that I would absolutely love for people to have.

SPEAKER_02:

I think we need to talk about that. That's exactly like it's a lot like it's funny when you talked about doing it at the end of the day, the internal size up. All I can think of is I journal, but I guess that's not manly enough. So I guess we got to call it internal size up, make it a little more manly.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, no, journaling actually is is fabulous. And I when I was counseling and working with firefighters, I would tell them to journal because you know as well as I do, Steve, when we talk to people, we have an art of BSing really well. But when you sit and you start writing from your heart, you can't BS that. And firefighters would come back uh the following week and they would be in tears as they read what they wrote because they never realized how much they were hurting or how much they were hiding. And so I absolutely love journaling.

SPEAKER_02:

The reason why, you know, like for me, we we I run a group, I run actually two groups a week with first responders only. This is very I don't let anyone else in. And I tried a few times to get the journaling going, it did not go well. So that's why I would say, like, I think if I call it internal size up, I think it's going to be a lot more palpable for people.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely, because they understand what a size up is in the first responder world. Police, dispatchers. I mean, you you know what size up means. You come up on a scene, you get a phone call as a dispatcher, all of a sudden you're sizing up what the issue is. So that's uh, and it seems like it's an acceptable term because a lot of people talk about it doing an internal size up.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, we'll definitely I want to hear about that. I mean, you know, I think that may be a good pl part to start here.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Something that happens a whole lot with people like I know that you're you're battalion chief when you worked as a you still work as a firefighter, are you done?

SPEAKER_01:

Or no, uh I I'm retired. Uh I'm a civilian here as at uh Las Vegas Fire and Rescue.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

So but oh overall 35 years.

SPEAKER_02:

So it's well, yeah, I would I would argue that you're not quite a civilian, but we'll agree to disagree. Right. At the end of the day, though, I think that one of the things that happened, this is one of the most important things. I did a survey about a year ago, two years ago, and I'm gonna do it again, but I know the answer already. When I asked, what's the number one stress for first responders? Administration betrayal is always like 80, 90. That those are the numbers that I typically get. Right. And a lot of it comes from moral injury.

unknown:

Correct.

SPEAKER_02:

I think it comes also, you know, like I'm gonna use your words, cultural brain, you know, brainwashing that also occurs. Right. Until you're no longer brainwashed, right? I like to hear more about moral injury. I mean, that's my interpretation. I mean, I simplified it a whole lot, obviously, but want to hear more about because moral injuries are so important to discuss because I think that that's to me the number one stressor for most first responders.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, it's also the number one known reason why our brothers and sisters are killing themselves. Correct. And so when I had first started, a couple firefighters called me up and said, Jeff, can you come out to one of our stations? Uh, we want to watch, want you to watch a video of a doctor doing a TED talk talking about moral injury and first responders. And he said, Well, have you heard about that? And I said, Well, being a licensed counselor, yes, but it's not in the DSM 5, you know, the diagnostical statistics manual, so it wasn't really pushed. So I, being me who I am with all my research that I do, I started really investigating it. I talked to the Shea Foundation, found out that Dr. Jonathan Shea is actually the person that's credited with the phrase moral injury. He was working with the military back in the 80s when he started talking about this and they did a lot of research. The military's done a lot of research. I I talked to Dr. Litz out of Boston University, who created the moral injury outcome scale. And I thought to myself, you know what? I I think I need to do a white paper on moral injury because I tied everything into, I always tie things into our data. And let me clarify, I have validated 2,278 fire EMS or dispatcher suicides. About 95% of that are firefighters. And we know that in our data, the number one known reason for our brothers and sisters killing themselves is due to relationships. So I started looking at this moral injury, and and I can't write a white paper because if if anyone's ever read one, you see it's very diplomatic written. I speak from my heart and my soul. So I had a good friend of mine, Dr. Liz Fletcher from Houston, and I said, Liz, I know I know you write white papers. Uh, can you you want to work with me on this? And I told her, you know what I was going to do, I was sending this more injured outcome scale survey to 15 fire department in EMS organizations. And she said, Absolutely, Jeff. So when they started coming back, we started looking at it, and I looked at it, I said, I have no idea what the hell this means, these moral injured outcome surveys. So I had to find someone who could, and that's where we met Chaps. His his name is is so long. I I he just tells people to call him Chaps. He uh is a military chaplain, he runs the moral injury unit at Rush Memorial Hospital in Chicago. And I said, Chaps, I said, would you like to be on our team? Well, I'll send you the information, you can interpret it, and then we'll write the white paper. And that's what we did. And so what I found out, uh, we decided to create a workshop, PTSD versus moral injury. What are the differences? So, moral injury in its belief is that as a human being, we are born inherently to do good. We want to help. Right. So we get into the first responder world, we're trained to help others to save lives. And in particular, fire EMS. Uh I was a fire medic, so uh, you know, you're trained to you know, drug therapy, IVs, interosseous, you know, electrocardiogram, all those sorts of things with the monitoring. Right. Well, over time, you start seeing more death than you're helping. Over the last couple of years, I've done an informal survey of wherever I speak, and I've asked our brothers and sisters, what's our save rate? By the time we get there for a drowning, a full arrest, a vehicle accident, someone trapped in a fire, attempted suicide, what's actually our save rate? And we came to the consensus it was five to eight percent. So we're seeing a lot of death. I think that's why we celebrate when we do bring someone back, or if we uh deliver a baby, you know, we're we're it's it's it's something that we're trained to finally, we saw some good come out of it. So where PTSD is trauma-based, fear-based, moral injury hits our emotions, whether it's guilt, jealousy, anger, fear, whatever those emotions are, depression. Right. But one key aspect of moral injury is betrayal. Betrayal by administration. Hey, you promised us more workers and less overtime, better pay, better equipment, or betrayal by others. Why are you bullying and picking on me as a member of this department? Why are you stabbing me in the back because it's job promotion time, even though we've been your friends for years after years after years, or betrayal by ourselves? Why didn't I say something when I saw someone being bullied? Why did I go out and have an affair and ruin my relationship with my spouse and my children now? So where you can have, so I I talked to the military about I interviewed them a few times. You can have PTSD and moral injury at the same time, but two different types of treatment thoughts. One is is that with moral injury, is that the key component of that is the ability to forgive, to forgive others and forgive yourself. And that's key. And it's easier said than done. And the other thing with the military, I looked at my data and I found over 40 of our brothers and sisters that went to inpatient facilities for either depression, addictions, or PTSD. And when they came out, they still ended up taking their lives. It just makes me think what was the PTSD or the addiction. Addressed, but no one looked at the moral injury. And so the key question for me when I asked the military, I said, when you looked at your data, where was the highest correlation of suicides of your soldiers? And they said, by far, Jeff, we lost more soldiers to moral injury than PTS. Yeah. And that's when I knew, based on the relationships being the number one method or number one reason out of the 2,278 that I have validated, relationships hits our emotions, whether it's at work or whether it's in our personal lives. And that's why I'm a firm believer moral injury plays a larger role than post-traumatic stress.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm going to link out that white paper. I know that you sent me the link. I make sure that that's in the show notes. Very important. You also said a lot of things I want to kind of like expand on a little bit. Please do. And I don't know which ones I want to start off with. First of all, when you told me you've been married for 45 years. Correct. I'm like, wow, you must be like a unicorn because you know one of the things, and I'm not picking on any of the guys in the fire service, but you know that divorce is a pretty high rate, again, higher rate than the general population.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah, it's somewhere between 65 and 68 percent.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I've heard like 65 to 70 regularly around there. So that's why I wanted to mention that because, and you know, congratulations. That's thank you.

SPEAKER_01:

I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02:

Civilian or not, that's quite an accomplishment. The other part that you talked about is you talked about ability to forgive. I want to get back to that. But you said celebrate our accomplishments. Here's one of the things I want to kind of like play devil's advocate here. What I find with my guys in particular, they're like, oh, you saved a life or you ran into a fire and you pulled someone out. And then the state or whoever wants to recognize them, they all get embarrassed. They don't want to be that's right. Okay. So you said, yes, we celebrate those, but we celebrate it in like the group. Like, I'm not a firefighter, I'm not a police officer, but I'm just a civilian. But I've been at those tables where they'll celebrate within themselves, but once they got to go in public and get that celebration, they get embarrassed or they try to minimize it the best you can. So part of me wonders if some of the moral injury and the stuff that happens too is that we celebrate privately, but then we get embarrassed about something that people want to recognize. And sometimes I think I tell people that that's actually a problem. So I don't know what you think, but I've seen that too many times.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, it's a good point. You know, it's that, well, what about the 99 other people that died that I could not save? So why should I be awarded this one that it's actually out of my hands? It's you know, it's up to the good Lord and and the physical uh capabilities of that person that's struggling. But you know, it is, it's for me humble. Uh, people say you're you're very humble, Jeff. And and I look at it this way you won't look on our Facebook and see, oh, we saved another life. We had a firefighter call us and we saved another life. That that's not that that's between me and the good Lord. And it's not for me to celebrate that aspect. Because when people call me, the first thing I tell them, I commend you for calling and reaching out. And and I think that's where us in the first responder world is a, well, we're trained to do this. That's what we're trained to do. And I tell clinicians when I'm training them, I said, don't when they sit down and say, hey, you know, I respect you, you're a hero to me. I don't want to hear that. I can get that at the grocery store, right? You know, I'm here for certain reasons. And when we finally save a life, and believe me, I've delivered a baby, it feels good. They named her Jefferina. No, I'm only teasing you. No, that's a great name. I like that. I like that. It's a great name, isn't it? Jeff Arena. But it's it's that's between me and uh, you know, my my training. And if but it feels like something finally paid off. Right. And but what about the the other drownings and things that we couldn't save? So we we kind of stay kind of humbled in that aspect.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, so I'll argue again, if you don't mind. No, I don't believe in I believe in humbleness because that's the stuff that I also try to do the best I can. But you know, I've had some people who said, you know, as a therapist, you save lives. And I'm like, well, I'm not no, I'm just like just doing my job. But there's also kind of a pride thing that sometimes once in a while I'm like, yeah, sometimes I do I do save people's lives. I may not always know, and I've had messages way after therapy was over, but hey, you said this, that stuck with me for the rest of my life, and or whatever. But it's hard to like when the humbleness is also kind of recognizing while staying humble. And I think maybe that's the hard balance that people have, not only in your field, but in general. I mean, okay, we're we're not gonna I'm not gonna pick on any particular industry here. I'm gonna try to be nice. But in our our industries, particularly the first responder world, and I look at even the mental health. I don't know many mental health counselors go, look at me, I save 40 lives or whatever, because they'll think about the three suicides that occurred or the whatever. Right. So, how do we balance recognizing our achievement while remaining humble? I think that's a thing that happens a lot.

SPEAKER_01:

But I think that's also a character, either it's a character flaw or a character strength in that person. And so, you know, I I don't know if that's something you can train or teach someone. It's just within them. But I I've seen more the majority firefighters, EMS, dispatchers, that they don't really like that recognition, that that say, hey, you know, this is my job. I I love it, I do it, and I don't even consider it a job. And it it took me about 14 years to finally admit that what I do in you know, validating the suicides and hearing 2200 plus 30 stories of how our brothers and sisters take their lives, it's tough. There's there's no doubt about it. Have we saved lives? Absolutely. I have the emails, I have children that have written saying thanks for helping my daddy. But that stays between me. That's me. I don't think what good does it do for me to put that out on Facebook and things like that? That that looks like you're just looking for some type of validation. I don't need validation. You know, this is the path that I was put on by the good Lord, and that's my validation. And and I don't need uh, I don't need awards. In 16 years, FBHA has never been recognized for anything, although many, many people believe that we were the movement for the behavioral health, especially suicide. But and and I and that's okay because all I'm concerned about, Steve, is that day I meet St. Peter at the gates, that I've done one better thing than negative, and I'm allowed to go in. That's what I concentrate on.

SPEAKER_02:

I get that. I mean, I I always remind myself that the reason why, I mean, I I I'm gonna keep it as vague as I can, and there's a reason for that. I do do some work pro bono for certain things, and I'm keeping it vague because I will be damned if someone thanks me for it. I'm doing it because it's like goodness of my own heart. Right. And I'm keeping it as vague as I can. Some obviously the people who know I do this, they think they thank me, and that's fine. But I don't want anyone because I feel like you know, Veterans Day was not too long ago, and then people are like, they thank the veteran, and then they don't get a text for another year, and then the last message they got is happy Veterans Day.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

I think that for me, it's you want a truthful thankfulness, and that thankfulness becomes your thing. You don't need to broadcast that. And I agree with that, and I appreciate the explanation. I want to switch gears though, because you talked about ability to forgive. Now I know what that means. I have a hard time explaining to it to my firefighters, my paramedics, my dispatch, uh police, uh, corrections, whatever. They the that ability to forgive, because they perceive forgiveness as that was okay. And I always say that's not what that means.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

But can you help me explain it better? Because maybe I'm not using the right language.

SPEAKER_01:

That ability to forgive, it's different than the ability to forget. Correct. And so that that is one of the key issues is that when you start talking to people and say, hey, you know, I I forgive you for that whatever you did. You know, maybe uh you you started spreading rumors uh about me in regard to job promotion. Even though we've been friends for 20 plus years, you started some rumor that I might not be qualified enough as a battalion chief, let's say. So, you know what? I can forgive you. Why? Because that gives me peace of mind, and that's what you need is you're you're being selfish on that. It gives me not that I'm going to forget, and not that we'll probably ever be friends again, but I will not hold any disdain discord to you. And I will talk to you, I will talk to you as a human being, but make may make it known we will never be friends again, but I'm not going to hold anything against you. I'm not going to slander your name out there. I'm not going to be telling you people, hey, do you know what this guy did to me? No, I've forgiven that, but it gives you more internal peace, and that's what we need when we say, Hey, I forgive you. You're actually saying to yourself, I need that internal peace. I need to move forward in my life.

SPEAKER_02:

I explain it similarly to that. Forgiveness is not about the other person, it's about yourself. Right. You know, and I use the Buddhist analogy, and I I like this analogy, is holding on to these grudges and not forgiving people is like holding on to a hot coal in your hand, hoping it's going to burn the other person. Right. I think that's another analogy that people understand. That's what happens. You hold this bitterness in your hand, you're just burning yourself. The other person truly doesn't care in some ways. Right. And I that's another analogy I use.

SPEAKER_01:

No, and and it's accurate. I mean, the the ability to forgive allows you at least to start talking to people, especially families that have maybe there's been a riff somewhere. Well, all of a sudden, next thing you know, three years have gone by and they haven't communicated. And life is too short. Life is way too short. Now you can call and you can have a good time at the holidays and things. Doesn't mean you're going to be running across the street to shake your hand and things, but it does say, hey, I can sit in a room with you. We can recall and laugh and joke. Doesn't mean I'm going to trust you all that aspect, but it means I I forgive you for that act or whatever that issue was. And like I said, you you as a human being, you can't hold on to that past. And I tell people, especially our retirees, when they they talk about their past all the time. I say, it's great to remember the past, but don't live in it. And that's that's key. And so when someone has done you wrong, you you can remember it, but don't live in that.

SPEAKER_02:

So I have a little saying on my wall that I got when I got my first private practice, and it's still there. And it says, Don't forget where you came from, but never lose sight of where you're going.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And I tell people that's kind of, you know, I live in the present, I know where I came from. I'm a blue-collar guy from my family, true and true. I'm lucky enough to sit on my butt and get paid to listen to people. And I'll never forget that because that's where I started. That doesn't mean I take that for granted and I move forward and do other stuff. I think it's important to kind of like do both in order to move forward. And holding again a grudge against Johnny and Jane. And how's that serving you? How's that helping you?

SPEAKER_01:

It doesn't, it does more damage to you than anyone else.

SPEAKER_02:

So I I've learned to to let go with that, and it's such a liberation once you get it, but I think it's to get it is really complicated.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. And that's why I say that moral injury, you know, that's you need to get help. You you cannot handle these issues on your own. And so that's why you do that internal size up. You know, why am I acting this way or feeling this way? I need to reach out, and I tell people, push pride to the side, push it to the side and reach out and get help.

SPEAKER_02:

I I think to talk a little more about the moral injury, one of the conversations I have with a whole lot of people is your feelings are valid. That doesn't mean they're right. They're valid. You can feel whatever the hell you want. Right. But that doesn't mean it's always right. And so that's a good way to kind of like pay attention to your emotions and then look at it.

SPEAKER_01:

And that's where your feelings and emotions come into play in what I call cognitive disconnect. And so when a member of you know Fire EMS, they go through that cognitive disconnect, and what that means is they're basing a decision on the emotion they're going through in reality, went right out the window. So if their emotion is depression or anger or guilt, and their thought process is, hey, you know what? I need to get rid of this pain. I've been dealing with this pain for so long. Or, you know, my family would be a lot better off. And I, and we, my wife and I, we know hundreds of family members. In all these years, I've never heard one say, geez, thank God that SOB is gone. No, but that's that's that cognitive disconnect that they they're basing it on that decision, that emotion they're going through. And if you're not there to stop that, how do we stop that person from taking their lives? Well, hopefully it's through the education of the internal size of. Why am I acting this way? Why am I feeling this way? So that that cognitive disconnect, they're they're basing decision, then they can be instantly. You know, they get a phone call. Wife says, I'm moving out. Uh I'm done. I've had enough, or I I found another man. And all of a sudden, boom, whatever anger, jealousy, guilt, whatever that is. And we all we all go through those things. How many times have you been driving on I-90 out there outside of Boston and someone cuts you off and your pop goes flying? I mean, do you just uh kind of wave at him say you have a great day, or are you, hey, you know what, I'm gonna catch up to him and hit him in the quarter panel and drive him into the ditch, right? Because your anger is so great at that moment. And and we saw this out here in Vegas uh last week. Uh road rage, one guy pulls out a gun and he and he shoots it into a car and kills an 11-year-old boy. You know, so that he based the decision on the anger that he was going through, and it cost him uh definitely jail time, but it cost the life of a young boy and a family just going to school. So, like I said, we have to understand our emotions.

SPEAKER_02:

And you just described every massole that I know, so it's just the culture around here, I believe. But we don't pull guns too much. That's the that's the good news. We don't pull many guns. So the it's we we just verbally become aggressive. No, no Boston chocolate cream pies go flying out the window or anything. Hey, if I I'm gonna give you an old reference here, it's the the molasses start ro flowing, you can't stop them. Right. Look it up if for those who are listening, just look it up if you want to, the great molasses uh in Boston in like 1938 or something like that. I can't remember here. I'm gonna switch gears a little bit because I think that we can't come back to this anyway. But I what I would love to do is to talk a little more about, you know, firefighter behavioral health alliance. You know, this is a great thing. Believe me, I'm I I can't tell you how many times I've heard good things. I I don't want to get into much detail, but I find that the firefighters have are a little bit ahead in the mental health well realm than the police in general. Okay, and I might disagree with that. Okay, well we'll we can debate it. That's great. I love the debate. So so do I. But let's start off with uh maybe the easier part and then we'll debate.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Firefighter behavioral health alliance. You you wake up one day and you go, gee, Willakers, I'm gonna do this, and uh poof, it comes up, and you've been doing this for 10 years. Or what happens?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, or yeah, or what happens in what aspect?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Well, how did it start? How did it continue? How do you keep maintain the motivation?

SPEAKER_01:

It's actually like that. And and that's a great question. You know, like I said, um, everyone has to have a support system. My wife, she uh she's the board president. Uh, without her, FBHA doesn't run. But also, my my strength and support system. I just said this at a peer support training yesterday. You know, people have their spouses partners, and I said, Yeah, I I have a wonderful wife that supports me, but I also have someone who walked on water. And so, because it's challenging, donation-wise, financial-wise, not too many people want to give to behavioral health, and especially suicide. I I've had manufacturers tell me to my face, uh, Jeff, we love what you do, but it's suicide, and it might be a negative connotation against our business. Even one told me that there's not much of a return on investment for us to make a donation. I'm thinking, you're saving lives. We're out thinking, we're getting out there to do workshops, to educate not only the firefighters, but their families. And that that's so key because we know, like I said, families is the number one issue that we're we're we die by. And so I have no problem being motivated to get up every morning to see how I can help here in Las Vegas. I put together a 12-point program from academy to retirement. People know who I am, so they will text me, they will call me, they will Facebook to me regarding a loss across the United States. It's we only estimate about a 60% reporting. There's a lot more work to be done. In 2010, when we started uh doing all this, we got beat up, Steve. I still have the emails saying, Oh, you're making up the numbers. PTS, that's a military. What the what the hell's going on? And so, but a cute side note. A couple of years ago, I was in Lincoln, Nebraska speaking when a young female firefighter came up to me. Of course, at my age, everyone's young. And she says, you know, she says, I've been following you and your wife and FBHA since you you started in 2010. She says, I think you're the grandfather of the movement, the behavior, health, and the fire service. And I just turned to her, I said, Well, why can't I be the father? Why do I be the father? Exactly. That's exactly what I was thinking. I never seen anyone turn so red in my life so fast. I'm just teasing with you. You know, and a lot of people believe that we are we're that movement to, especially in the suicide realm of it. Uh, but I I have no problem because I absolutely, like I said, love it when people call me and say, Jeff, I need help. And that's that's such a great feeling when people come to you and say, Can you help me? I'm struggling. And because I've been doing this for 16 years, I mean, my resources across the United States are are a plethora of resources. And I just I I call whoever and say, hey, I have this firefighter or this EMT or this this dispatcher. Yeah, how can we help them? How can we get them into an inpatient facility? How can we fire find and I find counselors for them? I do that for free. I find counselors that work with first responders that I have already vetted, and I call them. Now, great story. Uh I will tell you. This one story I I put on Facebook a couple years ago because he he asked me to. He says, he called me one day and he says, Jeff, I don't know if you remember me. And I said, I'm sorry, I don't remember. You know, he said, I called you about two years ago. I was sitting in the parking lot of a Walmart at night. I had a gun in my hand. And I'm thinking, this is it. Tonight's the night. And something inside me said, look once again for someone. And he said, Up popped on my phone when I Googled it was FBHA. I called you that night, late at night. You had me in a counselor the next day. And it saved my life. The divorce went through, but he says, I'm back with my children. I've remarried. I got out of the fire service. I started a business. He said, I am the happiest I've ever been in my life. And it's those things that motivate you to get you to continue to do what I do. Will there be a time? Absolutely. And I have to start looking and vetting someone that I feel meets, you know, with very strict uh rules and of confidentiality, validating the suicides to run FBHA. So I I have to start that process as well because if I leave, guess what? All the data goes to. And we we have, like I said, we have a lot of data that people use. So it's that that's what motivates me, Steve, is that I know out there today someone might be calling and saying, I need some help. And like I said, first thing I say is, I commend you. I have so many numbers of those who maybe did not reach out. Right. And that's important.

SPEAKER_02:

I can't tell you how much I agree. Sometimes I do say that to people. And what I always remind myself when people are sharing their stories, no matter if it's a civilian or a first responder, I can't do first responders 100% of the time with all due respect to all my guys, because I need, you know, I need some other types so that I can handle it a lot better. Call me whatever you want. That's just how it is. But one of the things that I always remind myself is thank you for the privilege. Sometimes people will break down and tell me something really, really hard that they've never told another human being. And I say, thank you. And everyone turns around and says, Well, you're my therapist. I'm supposed to. I said, but you don't have to. And that's the difference. Thank you. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. And I just actually said that last week in Iowa. A female firefighter who just found out she has a debilitating disease that's starting to attack her. She knows she'll be in a wheelchair in a few years. And after during the break, I walked over to her and I said, Can I ask, can I ask you, can I have a hug? I said, because I was so honored that you opened up in front of these people to talk about it. And yet your positive attitude was absolutely amazing. And I just wanted to see if I could give you a hug. And it and it's those little things, Steve, that are there's there's it's nothing monumental. It's just one human being connecting with another human being, right? Saying, I I appreciate your opening up to me and I want to return that by a hug, a thank you, or whatever it is. And it's not that difficult, but people are afraid, especially when it comes to behavioral health. You know, what how do I ask someone if they're struggling? And and I tell people, have you ever asked a good friend or a family member, are you thinking about killing yourself? Because it is damn difficult to do. And you have to practice in front of a mirror of saying it normally so that you don't freak them out when they tell you that. And so these there's there's just so much to it. Understand, we've actually only been talking about behavior health for about six, 15, 16 years now. Fire service has been around since Ben Franklin. So we got a long ways to catch up.

SPEAKER_02:

I I agree a hundred percent. I think that what you just said is I go back to something we talked earlier about is humbleness. When you keep humble, you remember that people don't have to tell you the stories that they give you. It's so important. I think that you talked about humbleness being one of those key traits. I do like humbleness in my mental health counselors who work with first responders. You know, and I think that what you know, you've talked about a little bit of different things here. You talked about the pushback that you got. For me personally, if I was like I was gonna make a joke about, I guess you're on module number 12 about retirement for FBHA. Maybe that's for you to review.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I mean, uh well, when I say that, we uh we consult, like I said, uh with fire departments on how to create behavior health programs. Because I I estimate probably less than 5% of any all the organizations that fire EMS dispatch have any type of complete behavior health program. It's nice to have a peer support team as well as an EAP program, but there's so much more to it. So much more. And that's that's where we have to really learn to invest in that. And we're not doing that yet. A lot of organizations are still only have peer support teams or EAP programs. So, what's the likelihood of having a complete behavioral health program? So, like I said, we have a long way to go. We've come a long way, but we have a long ways to go.

SPEAKER_02:

I agree a hundred percent. And one of the things that I talk about around here, and I created this pyramid that talks about it starts with wellness, and then you got your peer support, your clerical support, then you got the schisms, and so on and so forth until you get to hospital level of care. The goal is to keep you on the wellness peer support level so that there's a lot of support, there's a lot of resources that are available. But as you get closer, you also like I I put the arrow on the other side, decreased confidence goes from the top to the bottom is when you're starting to want to hurt yourself, when you start wanting to accidentally overdose, wink wink. That's harder to talk about. But when you're like, hey, I'm having a hard time because that call is hard, that's the wellness part. That's where we need to start. And that's kind of what I talk about a lot with. And I want to start the debate with you slightly, because I find that the firefighters, when I sat around the kitchen table or I sat around, you know, after a call, there's three or four of them just chit-chatting, usually a team of two to four around here in Massachusetts for fire. And they talk about it sometimes. They're able to not bust too many balls around that, but they do talk about it. And I find that with police because you go from one call to another, and most police, other than like high urban areas, are very much one man shows in their vehicles. And that's why I say that maybe it's not as evolved. So that's my argument for you, but I'm willing to hear yours.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I and I I'm a firm believer police have it worse than the fire service because when you're struggling with whatever issue is and you're an officer and you're driving around in your car, that that is just ruminating in your mind 24-7. And you have that gun right there. And if you go into that cognitive disconnect, it's it's very difficult. But for police overall, the Department of Justice has done a lot better funding of behavioral health for programs for behavioral health than the fire service. I agree. And that's why I say in that aspect, they're a little farther ahead than us. And we look at fire departments, and it's and and I've seen it. Jeff, we want to bring you in for you know program. Unfortunately, we have to charge not a lot. Our prices are the same for since day one in 2010. But since we don't get the funding, we have to charge something because our our annual weekend retreat for our family survivors runs about$20,000 to$25,000. You know, so fire departments will say, Jeff, you know what? We got to look at our budget. Well, we we can't cut people. So we'll have to look at training. And training is usually the biggest one where they start making cuts. Well, let's see, we need a hose line advancement, we need live fire burns, we need this and that, behavioral health. Well, you know, we're good so far, so let's look at that next year. And so it gets cut from the budget very, very easily. Whereas it should be separate, a separate budget item, behavioral health. But we don't touch that because this is what we earmarked for training to bring people in for behavioral health training for our members.

SPEAKER_02:

And I think that that's what you know, you talked about your modules. That's exactly what I think is important. I mean, maybe not everyone wants to go to a wellness visit with a first responder therapist who's culturally competent. But if you start with modules that you talk about, managing stress, managing relationships, because that's, you know, to me, that's one of the biggest stressors that first responders face. And if I know people listening to this will get it, but I I when I try to explain to civilians that, and I'm a civilian too, I don't try to steal anything, but when I explain that 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, three days off, and then going back at it, that's not ideal. That's difficult, and that's a lot of stress on a family. And they don't seem to comprehend how much that creates that energy. Never mind if you had some crappy or shitty call that night and that you want to come home and like your kids like, hey, daddy, and or mama or whatever, and then you're like in your head about something. I think that having those modules in a group probably opens up more conversation, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, I I I agree with you on that aspect. Uh it is difficult. I mean, the different types of shifts that are out there nowadays, uh 4896s, you know, so they're on two days and off four. And when you have a department like us that runs about 140,000 calls a year, guess what? They're up a lot during the night. And so that starts breaking down your sleep deprivation. Where in fact, in the fire service, we are starting to see a gigantic push across the U.S. of 2472s, 24 year on one day off three. We need it. The sleep, the loss of sleep is absolutely incredible. And so, yes, you might be dealing with a lot of stress and anxiety and other things, but guess what? If you don't have that sleep, that stress and anxiety is just magnified 10 times. And so we're starting to see that shift in in our ships to help out not only us, but our families, like you said, as well, it which is important because I I laugh at firefighters when they tell me, you know, I leave everything at work. Yeah, really? Let me ask your loved one about that one or your children. And uh, you know, there was a great sign when I moved out here to Vegas, a big billboard said that the only one who will remember that you worked all that overtime 20 years ago will be your children. And uh and and how accurate that is, right? And I'm trying, oh, I'm trying to get more overtime, you know, it's and this and that. Uh well, your your family pays the price.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. I agree a hundred percent. I think that that's the stuff that doesn't get talked about as much. And I I will go a call further. Firefighters are not fire are not firefighting anymore, they're mostly doing medicals. And some I know some departments have like a dedicated paramedic EMT type of travel, but from the most part, and around here in Massachusetts in particular, you're doing a lot of medicals and medicals at two, three o'clock in the morning. And my favorite one is people well, just sleep when you get home. Oh, yeah, because I can turn it off like that. Right. You know, I worked at a crisis team and it's not the same in an emergency room. And I get home at three o'clock or five o'clock in the morning. And like people like my then wife would say, like, it's seven o'clock, what are you doing up? I worked a crisis team for 12 hours. I my mind is still racing. I need to chill, and this is how I need to do it. It's not like you can just go, all right, I left it at the door and go on YouTube to see that one.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely, and that that's it's so accurate. Uh, especially I I travel a lot and I travel between different time zones. Yeah. You know, I get home at 9:30 in my time here in Vegas, yet it's 12:30 where I just left after three days out in the East Coast, and your body's not ready to sleep. And so you toss and turn, and it's the same thing with first responders. You know, you just don't go home and sleep well that next day. It's it's it's a big issue. So, you know, we did top five warning signs for our brothers and sisters. I interviewed over 600 face to face, and what were their top five warning signs that they were struggling with? Listen and impulsiveness, anger, isolation, loss of confidence and skills and abilities, and of course, sleep deprivation. And it's it's it's in there in a lot of jobs, right? It's not just there in the first in the first responder world, and I and I think society, one of the worst things are our cell phones because we're laying in bed and we're reading the before we go to bed, and it just it activates all that activity in our brain. So it's it's it's a true challenge for society.

SPEAKER_02:

It it's funny because like when I was on call, it was a whole different ballgame. I had to have again, I was on call when we had pagers, if you remember. For our youngins, pagers were a little thing that gave you a phone number to call back. But I remember like sleeping next to me, and then as soon as I was no longer on call, that thing would go downstairs where I can't hear it even if it goes off. And I did my cell phone, who which is right not next to me right now, but when I go to bed, it's on a different floor and it's on silent. And my girlfriend who you know always had her cell phone on next to her, and she would look at it before bed. We had a conversation one day. I'm like, your sleep's shitty because of that. You need to put like the light, it's dangerous, you're paying attention. Now you get you know riled up over whatever's on that phone. It's not good to have that screen time. So, like a lot of guys and a lot of gals that I work with, when I say leave your phone somewhere else where you can't reach it while you're lying in bed, the people who actually do it, they tell me, wow, that's revolutionary. I'm like, no, it's just logical.

SPEAKER_01:

I I wish I could do that because my my work here in Vegas is 24-7 in case some firefighter calls and struggle. And I still respond to major fires or major vehicle accidents. I'm there to observe my brothers and sisters. If anyone sees something or struggles with something, then I can follow up immediately after with them. So, like I said, I'm I'm still responding at two in the morning to the the big fire and things, and you get back at you know 3:30 and I wake up at five to go to work. So, what's the chances of me getting any good sleep? Right. So, so sleep is it is it's something that we need to address here in America.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I'm all I can think of when you said you go to major calls. I remember years ago, not too long ago, there was a shooting in Las Vegas at a concert thinking, oh my god, he must have been there.

SPEAKER_01:

No, I I wasn't. That was before my time starting here, but I still deal with dispatchers and firefighters over there. I mean, it's it's been eight years. It's been eight years already. That's how fast time flies. And and I tell people, you know, I firefighters that were there, they videoed, were videoing the concert, and then they you hear the shooting. And I tell them, if you ever get a chance to see any of those videos, don't. Don't yeah, do not see them because it is difficult to see people running for their lives being gunned down. And so I tell them, yeah, we live in this exciting world, you know. Oh, we want to see everything, and we got cameras everywhere. Try not to see these type of things because they will stay with you.

SPEAKER_02:

Having done a uh couple of sessions and SISM after Sandy Hook in uh Connecticut uh myself, I I will tell you, I don't want to ever hear those stories again. And it's not because I can't handle it, but it's like it's hard to process. And yes, I had a few nights of not sleeping after having those conversations. I held it while I was with the person, don't get me wrong. But at the end of the day, when I went home, damn did that stay in my head for a long time, and I wasn't even there.

SPEAKER_01:

And I remember, I don't know if you remember Chief Halstead. He was Sandy Hook fire department. We would have some great conversations about like the anniversaries, how his people were handling, how how were you taking care of it? You know, I'm just I get I'm always trying to find out information, so learn it. We had some great conversations, and then a few years back he suffered a heart attack and uh since passed. But uh very sincere, honest gentleman who would always talk to me uh about uh behavior health and taking care of his people.

SPEAKER_02:

And he did a fantastic job after such a tragedy for his guys, and uh I give credit a lot, I give a lot of credit to that chief uh rest in peace. Which brings me to another hard subject before we kind of like wrap up here. There's a lot of data about suicides, and there's a lot of data missing about suicide. I'd like to hear more about what those numbers say. I know you work pr mostly with firefighters, dispatch, and emt slash paramedics. Right. So I'd like to hear more about those.

SPEAKER_01:

I I I will tell you that there's no discrimination in our data. Doesn't matter if you're career volunteer, city, suburban, rural, wildland, military, fire, doesn't matter about the age, the rank, like I said, volunteer, career, rural, city, everyone has to be prepared. Every organization needs to be prepared for these tragic events. And you do that by being proactive. How do we stop those by being proactive? Does that necessarily mean that you're going to stop it? No. And believe me, uh my my blood boils when I read articles that say suicide is 100% preventable. All that does to me is tell me that we will place the blame on the family or the friends because they didn't see or they didn't do something to stop that. Right. But the other thing I always talk about is our our data, cultural brainwashing is a big one. And this applies to our female fire and EMS. When we look at our data, we we know in society that the number one known reason for females in society taking their lives, or excuse me, the number one method is overdose. But in our data, by far, the number one by two to one is firearms. And it makes me think about this cultural brainwashing for female fire and EMS dispatch. Is it because they've been on those calls and they see they're 99.9999% effective, or is it do they fall prey to the culture of brainwashing of how they're supposed to act in a male-dominant career? That not only do they work that way, but they die that way. I I I can't prove that. And so, like I said, there's just there's so much. I mean, the some of the methods, Steve, I don't I don't even know if I want to even talk about some of the methods. They are, I mean, they're all horrific, no doubt. But the some of them that punish themselves in such a manner that it's very, very disturbing. And I think what was the depth of their pain to do that type of pain-inflicting suicide method upon your body, upon your soul. And these are the things that we need to address as organizations. How are you being proactive within your department?

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, I don't know what cultural brainwashing falls, if this falls under cultural brainwashing or not, what I'm gonna say next. But, you know, I see that in many ways. Women who have to adapt to a male culture and you know, suck it up buttercup, and what are you gonna cry? And there's all these little things that are culturally. Need to be changed in the fire service as well as the police service. That's my first thing. And I think that's a bit of cultural brainwashing that occurs. Let's add another layer. The old timers, I survived it. You should survive it too. And that has to die. And what I mean by that is I have 25-year-olds who call me up and say, I don't need you for therapy right now, but I want to establish a relationship with you just in case I need it in the future. And these young guys and young gals are doing it as a preventive measure on their own. But they even get shamed for like, oh, so why the hell do you see a therapist? I'm like, why are we doing this when like that's their choice? It's not a problem. Is it bothering you? It doesn't bother you. They're getting a therapy.

SPEAKER_01:

And so my my term cultural brainwashing, very similar, you have a lot of uh the similarities, but uh I I look at it this way, and and I think society's culturally brainwashed. Steve, if I uh I'm going to ask you when you hear the term firefighter, what words come to your mind?

SPEAKER_02:

Brave came to mind right away, and jokingly pillow, but brave, strong, courageous, heroic.

SPEAKER_01:

I have two workshops, one for the chaplains and counselors, the other one's for families. And I asked this question, and I I start off the workshops with it, and I get those same things for 16 years. In sixteen years, what I haven't heard is well, Jeff, they have anger issues. They drink like fish. Their communications suck. So people are culturally brainwashed. Now imagine us putting this uniform on every day. How we are supposed to act. Brave, strong, courageous, give help, don't ask for help. I handle all issues on my own. I don't want to be the weak link of the company. And who expects that? Our brothers and sisters we work with, society, the communities we serve, the traditions of the fire and EMS world tell you this is how you're supposed to act. And when you're going through something very, very difficult, either in your personal or professional life, and you're expected to go it alone because that's the way it was always done, that's cultural brainwashing. And so these are the things that I address in our workshops.

SPEAKER_02:

And I think that that's where we need to make that cultural shift. And you know as much as I do, changing a culture is extremely difficult.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely it is. Absolutely. And that's why I say we've only been doing this 15 years. We've come a long way, have a long way still to go.

SPEAKER_02:

And I really give a lot of credit to you and people who have made the point of talking about mental health. Talking about, you know, I have a few people who've come on who have talked about their own mental health issues while they were in the service and talked about it openly. I think that we're starting to see that shift that people accept that yes, it is hard and sometimes it's difficult. And no one comes into this job to say, I want to be like really fucked up when I leave here. No, they come in because they want to help people, they want to be supportive. And when you say that, that's also what probably people missed in their own lives. They didn't get enough support. And that's what we need to be able to be culturally able to shift to give that support and not shame it. How many guys have I seen in the police particularly say, So are you going to take my gun now that I'm in therapy? And I'm like, why would I take your gun? Is there a reason I should be taking? No, but that's what I heard. And I'm like, no, that's not exactly how that works. I'm not concerned about your gun right now. You give me concern for your gun, we'll have a different conversation. But I think that plays a factor too, and that's the fear that they also like you talk about cultural brainwashing. There's a fear that permeates throughout a lot of departments. It's changing, but it's not completely changed.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, but and but that's they're basing all that on that's what really happened. If you went and sought some psychiatric help, they took your gun away, which means your job. And so that's why they withheld that type of going to seek that type of help. I have, you know, I have resources all over, especially here in Vegas, too, that that that are not associated with the health insurance and their EAP. Maybe they just want to go pay cash because they don't want anyone to know. And so I have those resources of counselors that are not on our EAP panel. And and that's important. So I think it's very easy for every department in America, whether it's a volunteer, and I know it's tough. The only thing I found good out of COVID was it opened up telehealth. So you can sit there in Boston and talk to someone in Springfield from the comforts of your home. And we're now actually starting to see where those licenses can now transcend across state lines without going through or jumping all the hoops. So we're opening and expanding that aspect, which is tremendous. But like I said, some people just don't want anyone to know. So they'll go and seek it out on their own, which which which is fine because they're they're getting help. And that's the bottom line. Right. You're looking for help, you're asking for help. And uh so we're making progress, no doubt, no doubt about it, Steve.

SPEAKER_02:

I think that you know, as January comes along, we're gonna have Interstate Compact that does for particularly mental health, the LPCs, the LMHCs, the LCMHCs. You've seen that in the social work realm. I'm gonna call out my own state in Massachusetts, I'm gonna call out California. You are not part of the interstate compact, and I don't understand why. I did telehealth before it was cool. I was doing it with a company where we didn't have those laws. It was like the wild, wild west. So I saw people from all continents and all 50 states. And when you're in the middle of South Dakota, it's hard to find a therapist that doesn't know everyone.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, exactly. So exactly. It's hard to hard to find towns in there in those areas.

SPEAKER_02:

Like that that woman was so happy that I didn't know her history, I didn't have any preconceived notions, and frankly, I didn't know anything about South Dakota. So what do I care? And that there's a lot of that with the interstate compact that's opening up, that's really important. And telehealth has been a big help for a whole lot of my guys who check on like I've got at least five or six from that 10 years ago that are still seeing me off and on because of that.

SPEAKER_01:

So and I want to I I I like what I like what you said about preconceived notions. Uh, I will and people always ask me, Jeff, what was the greatest thing you've learned about doing what you're doing? I said, I I found out a lot about myself, meaning the greatest thing I've learned is that I've learned not to judge others because I've never walked in your footsteps. I have no idea what your history is, but I'm glad that you've called and reached out for help. You will not be judged by me.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, on that note, Jeff, I'm gonna like thank you because we've but we're about an hour in.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. All right. It goes quick, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I'm gonna send this to you too. You want to come back anytime. I know you're working on a couple of projects, and I don't know how many of them are public, so I'm just gonna keep that to myself. But when you have those projects, please come back on. I love their conversation. I like that we disagreed and we had a good healthy debate. And I think that I like to monitor, like I like to model people that we can have a debate and we're still liking each other, and there's nothing wrong with that, and we need to learn that.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. Absolutely amateur that, sir. I was just gonna say it's been an honor, and I I actually do look forward to coming back on.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, and long term, I'm gonna I want you to plug whatever you want to plug, number one, but more importantly, if you ever need resources, it's not that I have the greatest resources in the world, but my group of behind the badge and beyond, we do have vetted therapists that are available. So if you ever need something from me, need anything from behind the behind the badge, let me know. I will make you put you in contact with the right people.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. I will I will take you up on that.

SPEAKER_02:

All right, I'm right there for you. And that's also voluntary. There's no that's but don't tell anyone because I don't want to be thanked for it.

SPEAKER_01:

So uh okay, then I won't thank you. All right, thank you. I'll just smile I'll just smile at you and shake my head.

SPEAKER_02:

See now now we get along great now. But tell tell me more about um what's the website? Where can people find the white paper, stuff like that?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's uh they all they actually have to do is Google Firefighter Behavioral Health Alliance. Uh but our webpage, of course, www.ffb isn't bravoha.org. And under the resource tab, you'll you'll see PTSD versus moral injury. Just click on that and you can download the white paper for free. But I think, like you said, you had a link you can put that on as well. And and join us on Facebook too. You know, we we do a lot of things. I do some videos on I just did one the other day uh titled it, Jeez, isn't that awful? Um something blah. Yeah, this is what happens when you turn 64 and a half. Perceived blessings versus true blessings. What a perceived blessing is versus what a true blessing is. So uh, like I said, they can follow us on Facebook as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I'm gonna put all that. You are welcome anytime. And personally, from me to you, I truly enjoyed this. I know it's gonna be on the podcast. Obviously, it's not so personal, but from the bottom of my heart, if you ever need anything, just reach out. I'll put you in the right direction around here, and I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01:

And and likewise, you ever need uh you know, just chat something off, you know how to get hold of me.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Now I have your number, so you're you're screwed, man.

SPEAKER_01:

But I'm sorry, I I put I put that on block already.

SPEAKER_02:

No. Thank you. That's good. That's what you gotta do with me. Ask everyone who knows me or not know me. But anyway, thank you very much. And I want to thank our audience for episode through 239 and looking forward to the next episode. So thank you guys.

SPEAKER_00:

Please like, subscribe, and follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for informational, educational, and entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to the professional counselor for consultation. If you are in a mental health crisis, 988 for assistance. This number is available in the United States and Canada.

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Steve Bisson

Host
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Jeff Dill

Guest