E.46 Let's Talk About Trauma, Grief, How It Affects Us As A Client, and Therapist With Gina Moffa

In episode 46, we talk with Gina Moffa, LCSW about trauma, grief, types of therapy that "work", as well as how to use strengths in order to support our clients' growth. Gina is candid about working with spirituality and how to use "whatever works". 

A psychotherapist for over 18 years, Gina Moffa, LCSW, has an active private practice in Manhattan, where she specializes in the many faces of grief and loss. Gina also focuses on helping people to navigate uncertain, complicated life transitions, and most recently, she is working on a book to modernize grief, and empower those going through the grief process.

You can reach Gina via her website here.

You can also follow her Instagram account here.

Transcript

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Steve Bisson: 0:01

Hi and welcome to finding your way through therapy. I am your host, Steve Bisson. I'm an author and mental health counselor. Are you curious about therapy? Do you feel there is a lot of mystery about there? Do you wonder what your therapist is doing and why? The goal of this podcast is to make therapy and psychology accessible to all by using real language and straight to the point discussions. This podcast wants to remind you to take care of your mental health, just like you would your physical health. therapy should not be intimidating. It should be a great way to better help. I will demystify what happens in counseling, discuss topics related to mental health and discussions you can have what your thoughts I also want to introduce psychology in everyday life. As I feel most of our lives are enmeshed in psychology. I want to introduce the subtle and not so subtle ways psychology plays a factor in our lives. It will be my own mix of thoughts as well as special guests. So join me on this discovery of therapy and psychology. Hi, and welcome to episode 46 of finding your way through therapy. I am Stevie. So if you haven't listened to Episode 45 yet, please do so. Morgan Beard was so open and honest about her own life, her own treatment, her coaching and particularly her music and I loved her music. I've listened to a couple of songs already, the third song just came out. So I hope you get a chance to listen to her music. But episode 46 will be with someone I met through Instagram years ago. And I want to say it was 2019. And we always exchanged we always got along and we decided to do a podcast together. So Gina Moffa is an LCSW in New York City. She's a psychotherapist for over 18 years, and she specializes on the many phases of grief and loss. Gina also focuses on helping people navigate uncertain complicated life transitions. And most recently, she's working on a book to modernize grief and empower those. Going through the grief process. I'm looking forward to having a conversation about the book, obviously you guys know about my book, but really want to hear about that and obviously to work with the grief and loss. So here's the interview. Hi, and welcome to episode 48 of finding your way through therapy. I'm Stevie. So I'm sitting here with someone that I feel like I've known for about three years. However, I've never actually talked to her until today pre interview and right now. And it's always fun to meet someone in this way. Even though it's also nerve wracking because you kind of like wanting to get to know him. But you don't want to like, you know, you don't want to break any kind of like barriers or anything. So it's just weird sometimes even for me. So, Gina MOFA is a therapist in New York City. And she's been practicing for several years. I don't remember off the top of my head. But Gina, welcome.

Gina Moffa: 2:49

Hi, Steve, nice to be here with you. It does feel like we've talked for a million years but never face to face.

Steve Bisson: 2:56

I was scrolling through our direct messaging on Instagram. And I'm like, it goes back to like 2019 that we've liked our posts or what have you. And I'm like, wow, that's a long time.

Gina Moffa: 3:08

Yeah, actually, I thought it was even longer than that. Because I don't know. I'll go back and see, but it's especially through the pandemic. I think it's so nice. I think we got to know each other more during the pandemic, talking more and you know, sharing each other's posts and stuff like that. And I think that that time really helped us form a community that we all sort of needed. So I'm so grateful to Instagram for bringing us together. I usually

Steve Bisson: 3:35

have an order for my questions. I kind of do it almost the same every podcast, I'm going to jump to a different thing. Didn't we need other therapists that kind of cold misery during this hard time during the pandemic? I'm just gonna throw that out right now.

Gina Moffa: 3:47

Yeah, yeah, we needed it more than ever, I think just to normalize, but also to support each other. And I think we still do, I don't think we've come out of it. I think the need and the mental health crisis is just snowballing still. And I think we need each other more than ever, and I am so entirely grateful for Instagram because honestly, without Instagram and without meeting amazing other therapists, I think you know, like you and a few others, I think I would have really feel like I would have lost my own mind feeling so isolated during this time.

Steve Bisson: 4:22

And I think that that's what the general population felt. And then not to take away from any other professions. I can only talk about mine and talent intelligently. We were so like holding space for other people while we were we're still going through a pandemic ourselves. And I think that that brought a dynamic that's pretty unique for pretty much a lot of professions because doctors it's in and out. But for us it was like you know, 15 minutes in or whatever you do have intense kind of like interaction with a pandemic and going in your head going crap. I have the same problem.

Gina Moffa: 4:55

Yeah, I think it was one of those times where I really likened it to Parenthood in a way, which is you're going through something or you're scared, but you know that you have to stay strong, and stay together and keep it together for other people. And I thought in the beginning, I think we all did that it was going to be two weeks, I remember sending my out of office saying, we'll be back in April. And then two years later, I was like, I don't think we're going back to the office for a very long time. But I think at that time, just like you said, it was like, I really had no idea what to tell people. And it was so interesting how they looked to us, or at least my clients looked to me and said, you know, what do we do? How do we get through this? And this is so unprecedented. Even our medical community had no idea or government leaders had no idea. So it was like, Well, how do we know then there's nothing guiding us. And so I think therapists out of most professions really had to dig deep, and not just hold the space. But I mean, really hold steady, in a really turbulent ocean that we were going along in, you know, how do we be a floating donut for people while we're potentially drowning to in that same ocean? So it was a really unique time? And I think it still is, and I think it's, it's been exhausting. I know, for our clients, it has been, but also for so many of us.

Steve Bisson: 6:21

And I joked around with a lot of people during the pandemic, and I still do, I went to assumption University for my masters. And I don't know, where did you go for your masters went to NYU? Did you miss the class where they talked about how to handle a pandemic as a therapist? Because I did!

Gina Moffa: 6:40

I definitely missed that one. I was fast asleep.

Steve Bisson: 6:44

And that's why I gotta tell people is like, you know, people, like, oh, therapists are so strong, and this and that. And like, do you think there was a course on this?

Gina Moffa: 6:52

Absolutely, I think the closest I could come was being a trauma therapist and having training in trauma and crisis. And that was, to me as close as I can come since I still think that's where we are. But even then, I mean, we're talking, you know, my training is in like war, and that kind of thing. And, and terrorism, and, and a pandemic, which spans the entire globe, and every country was treating it differently. And some places were not, you know, in our country, even thinking there was a pandemic. And so it made it really hard that none of us were seeing the same reality at all times. So I think, that tricked us to and to saying like, how do we, how do we have training for something? Or how do we help people that don't think there's anything going on? Or at least some people, so there was that too, was a really tricky time?

Steve Bisson: 7:44

You know, it's, it's interesting, because I think about how, for two years, we were very much isolated for the most part, some people didn't, but for the most part, the world was isolated, still happening in China still happening in other countries with the breakouts right now. And one of the things that, you know, I'm a trauma specialist to I've done trauma work with first responders, the military personnel, correctional staff. Yeah. Obviously, other types of trauma, that's mostly my specialty, you know, a war you have at least an ally next to you. Yeah. You know, police, you have other officers or you have, you know, fire come and help you, or there is some sort of interaction, when we have a population that's just isolated, and they can't come to common ground, or they can't be even challenging their notions, because you're only going to be going towards the information you want. Yep. It creates such a hard silo to break for so many people. I mean, I don't know how you dealt with it. But it was sometimes like listening to some silos. It was like, Holy crap.

Gina Moffa: 8:48

I tried to avoid it. I think I think there were times that I really had to put myself on an Information Diet there. And you know, I live in New York City. So for the most part, everybody was on the same page, you know, and when it was 7pm, everybody was outside or opening their windows clapping for the first responders and it felt like we were all in this community that really was a small community, though, there were 9 million people in the city. So it felt okay and I I understood something as being so far away as the other people who didn't know or or who didn't believe or who didn't follow the rules or whatever it may be. And they didn't come into my reality my actual reality but I think it was hard for me to really digest that people weren't believing that people were dying. And you know, I was working with er Doc's as a volunteer and I was watching it myself and so for people to say that what I saw I wasn't seeing was really like a total life.

Steve Bisson: 9:49

No, you're I've worked with er Doc's too and the the reality of hearing you know, hearing my nurses and my doctors plead for like PPE PPE at the beginning and hat Nene. mean to help? And people telling me like, Well, no, this isn't this isn't real. This is like the common cold. And like, I've gotten nurses breaking down after two months. I mean, I have a doctor who's just like, so anxiety ridden not because of necessarily COVID. But all the hard work you got to do and the emergencies, literally emergencies that come in. So I relate to a whole lot of what you said,

Gina Moffa: 10:27

Yeah, I'm still kind of wondering if there will be a time that we're all looking at the same reality together? Or are those days over? You know, and I think that's also a loss coming from the grief therapist, but I guess we'll find out as time goes on.

Steve Bisson: 10:44

Well, it's interesting. I don't know if you get that question all the time. But people ask me all the time, how do we get to a common ground? I do. I have my answer. But since you do, what's your answer?

Gina Moffa: 10:57

Oh, no, I don't have an answer. I don't I have an answer. Your answer?

Steve Bisson: 11:01

What I usually tell people is that you need to be able to challenge your thought process. And what I mean by that is that, you know, for me, you can talk about politics, you can talk about COVID, you can talk about the war in Ukraine, you can talk about anything, what you need to be able to do is be challenged. And what I mean by that is that when people would say, I don't know, if it's real, it's hard for me to challenge the fact that I know people are dying. So that's a hard one. But kind of like being mindful that people are struggling with that reality. And then also realizing that perhaps some of it might be exaggerated. So I do kind of like, okay, what do you mean by it's exactly exaggerated. So let myself be challenged without feeling attacked personally. And I think that when you can accept a little bit of a challenge without feeling it's personal. I think that that's where we're gonna get a common ground. I joke around sometimes with friends and even clients. So you know, I blame John McCain and Ted Kennedy for this, because they're the last two who actually reached out to the middle. Yeah. And it's created this divide in politics and belief systems, and we're not that different. And we just need to find that common ground.

Gina Moffa: 12:13

And with you, I'm not 100% Yeah, I mean, and I try really hard to come at it with with empathy. I mean, I have a family that has different political beliefs than I do. And you know, it doesn't take away the love. I'm not going to ostracize family members, or whatever, because of it. I know a lot of people have, and I still feel like there's got to be something. There has to be some there's a reason that people believe what they do. And you know, a lot of it can be fear based. And I think it's fear based on both sides. Right. So

Steve Bisson: 12:48

I agree wholeheartedly. I think the fear is exactly what the problem is.

Gina Moffa: 12:51

Yeah. So I although I don't have a great answer, like your answer is actually great. I can allow myself to be challenged. But I also get very, very angry when I read comments sections and things like that, where I'm like, I've got to stop this. Because people are looking for that confirmation bias, right, they're looking for they go out and seek things that actually confirm what they believe. So I think it when we can stop doing that so much, and people who watch one news, America, or whatever that is exactly I can't even remember the name of it, or Fox or whatever can turn on CNN or CNN can turn on Fox and really start to see where kind of where the divide is. Or I think we can sort of know what the divide is at times. But I think if we can hear things it's going to be having that information sometimes is better than not having it and staying with what we think. I don't know. But coming at it with empathy is always sort of my go to

Steve Bisson: 13:50

the people who talked a lot about the news that they saw on and by the way, CNN, Fox, MSNBC, America one, name them all, I don't really care. I tell people like, Okay, go for something to the right or left, that doesn't matter. That's the one that's right or left, again, doesn't matter. And go something like Associated Press or routers or something that's more like middle ground. Yeah. And then make your own opinion, don't go with one or the other, make your own opinion. And I think that that's what we're missing is that we're not willing to kind of like go for our own opinion, we need to fix in a silo in order, I guess we need to all have a sense of belonging. But

Gina Moffa: 14:28

I think that's what it is. And I think there are those people that are really in the middle that go for some top, you know, some topics and not for others or whatever, but I think people are afraid to not belong. I think there's a big mob and mentality around the world, you know, too, but I also think that I think it's lonely being having your own opinions and and not having people to say yeah, they're with us or whatever. I think we're asking people to do something where they've already been isolated now to That's now to think for themselves. Or to think, you know, even if people are thinking for themselves, which, you know, I feel like I am. And I do also feel like I belong to a group. But I think it can be hard when people feel isolated and lonely to then sort of stand out in these other ways to

Steve Bisson: 15:19

already feel you stand out because you're sitting alone because it's a pandemic. So I guess that's the hard part. Right? Right there.

Gina Moffa: 15:25

Exactly. And who knows if it will ever end?

Steve Bisson: 15:28

Right. One of the things I also kind of like remind a whole lot of people, let's remind them that we're listening to finding your way through therapy and seeing the Gina Mofaz, the CBC. Canadian system, are you in Quebec, where I grew up in Canada, we need to go through four philosophy classes in order to get your degree. Oh, and it was, we had amazing, maybe I got lucky, but I think a lot of them a lot of my, my my friends also said the same thing is that when you start thinking about philosophy, as a moral debate, but you can disagree, but not have to fight about it, you are kind of willing to listen to another point of view. And I think that that's the other part about the critical thinking that we kind of lose, because it's okay, if I believe that yellow paper is worse than white paper, I don't have any facts for this. I'm just making it up here. But I'm okay if I live with that. Because I'm not harming anyone. When you start harming people with your thought process, or just saying things that are nasty to people and all that. I think that that's where the problem lies. And I think philosophy really taught me how to kind of like work through that.

Gina Moffa: 16:33

Can you spread that to some American cities, please?

Steve Bisson: 16:37

I honestly think that, you know, if we, you know, people talk about this, teachers work hard, I'm not blaming the teachers whatsoever. But if we only had even like in high school, you had one or two philosophy classes, just to kind of like, bring that thought process up. I think it would bring so much more willingness to listen to another person.

Gina Moffa: 16:57

I completely agree. I really, really do. Well, thank you for that.

Steve Bisson: 17:02

Right? Well, now that we have the we've solved the pandemic, we've solved the thought process. There's a lot of solving here. How about you tell me more about yourself, even though I know you a little bit, but I don't know you really well. So how about you share

Gina Moffa: 17:15

a little bit? Well, I am a therapist in private practice in New York City, which I think I did mention, I work with trauma and grief and life transitions, which is, you know, divorce, painful moves, you know, moves where people come to a city and they don't fit in and they're trying to acclimate? Yeah, and I'm writing a book currently within a publisher here in the states on grief and modernizing it to kind of be where, where a Griever is, in these days, in the pandemic, and post pandemic. So yeah, I mean, that's kind of it. I'm a Leo. And for now, let's you have any other questions?

Steve Bisson: 17:54

Oh, I've got plenty of questions. You know, we have unlimited time here.

Gina Moffa: 17:57

There you are. I forgot to say I'm, as I've been a therapist for about 18 years now. Graduated from NYU in 2004. And went straight into trauma, trauma trainings and all of that.

Steve Bisson: 18:09

Well, it's just not fair. Because we're again, right. I graduated in 2003. So again, very close in our hearts.

Gina Moffa: 18:17

I love it. Did you go straight into trauma as well?

Steve Bisson: 18:21

Besides my own you mean?

Gina Moffa: 18:26

Yours is the first case study?

Steve Bisson: 18:28

Yeah, that was the first case study when I was 12. But Well, yes and no. So I worked on a crisis team for since 99. On I was just a phone person at first, but then I went to evaluations when I got my master's. But I worked on that team for 15 years. So I would say that I did start with trauma, I guess if I would say that. But I also know that I ended up working in a jail and working with parole and probation and police officers on call response. So they used to be called jail diversion. Now, it's a call response model. So yeah, trauma was kind of like my thing. Did you get into that?

Gina Moffa: 19:05

So it's funny when we say that, you know, I got in to it because we had September 11, year and 2001, as the world knows. And at the time, I was writing a paper on terrorism and the psychological aftermath of PTSD. And it felt like a natural path for me in a lot of ways to go into trauma in some capacity. I wasn't sure how it was going to look. So when I went into my MSW program at NYU, inevitably, I wound up being really interested in, in trauma, but also how people respond to trauma, how we're treating it, it was really new at the time. It was the first time even the American people really understood PTSD outside of Vietnam, you know, or war or War Syndrome. So it was really a cutting edge time to be a part of trauma. And there was wasn't a lot, there weren't programs really out there for it. So, at that time, there was a program at NYU at the time, it was sponsored by the School of Medicine at NYU, and just a handful of people were accepted to this program. And it was a lot of international trauma stuff. So I happen to be one of those people accepted. And I am so grateful for it, because it really opened up my world, there was externships, with survivors of torture. And it really, you know, despite the types of people that I got to work with, it was really understanding how trauma affects the human condition, pretty much irreversibly. And although, you know, and I mean, the brain and stuff like that. But yeah, and I wound up working down the road with Holocaust survivors. And that was sort of my backdoor into working with grief, because I don't know a single person who has been traumatized or has lived with trauma, who is not grieving something, you know, that before and after, I can't necessarily say 100% of the time, those who grieve or have experienced grief have also experienced trauma. But there are more and more especially since COVID, that I really do believe that many, many griefs at this point are traumatic. And it's really subjective, right? But I do think, yeah, at this point, trauma is a big grieving process. And so that's really how I got into doing more grief work and going into more grief trainings and training, training training.

Steve Bisson: 21:32

Well, you know, it's interesting, because, you know, you kind of answered it, but I think it's a good question to kind of really, like, work out. What would you say is the huge difference between trauma and grief? And how do you work on it differently?

Gina Moffa: 21:47

You know, it's interesting, because now I feel like I'm working on it really similarly. But I think with trauma, it's shocking, it's out of the blue, it affects you in a way that affects your nervous system affects your brain chemistry, parts of your brain, you have flashbacks, I mean, the symptoms are really pervasive. It's not 100% of the time, what happens with grief, but it is 100% of the time, what happens with trauma. With regard to treatment, trauma treatment, as you know, there are methods, we work with a lot of the physical symptoms and the somatic experiencing with grief, it depends on what the symptoms are what people are coming to me with, but a lot of the time, their story needs to be witnessed, just like trauma. But the story itself, and they're sharing it and having just their heart be able to talk about their lost loved one is the treatment and sort of dealing with the symptoms as they come up. But I think people do for the most part want to move forward with their person or what you know, or get over their loss, which may be not a person, it might just be a divorce, or it may be the loss of their livelihood, or the loss of their job or, you know, loss of an identity. And so I think that's more of a processing. I think, as you know, it's trauma work. There's a lot that needs to be done like EMDR, or, you know, whatever it may be a lot of it really is very physical. And with trauma, whatever there is, I like to include it a really holistic approach to it. So I don't know if I answered your question completely. But

Steve Bisson: 23:29

no, you did. You actually did. There's so many things that come up for me when you said that though. I do agree like I am an EMDR. practitioner. I think EMDR works great. And I always use the analogy. And I think grief is similar. I just had a similar experience with a client recently, where, you know, she had panic attacks and really struggling on on a day. And what I kind of tell people is that trauma or and I don't want to put grief in the same package. But it's similar. It's like a mountain. Everybody's willing to circle the mountain, but not a whole lot of people are willing to climb the mountain. Part of the process of trauma and grief is to climb that mountain. And when you get on top, your work is not done because going downhill sometimes is even harder than climbing up top. So I hear a lot of people like Oh, I was over my trauma or my grief, like no, you probably got to the top of the mountain and said, Hey, I'm done. Now you got to get to the other side. And never you never like solve your trauma when I tell people is if you're looking for someone to solve the trauma ain't your therapist, I can get help you go through your trauma, but I will never get you over or make you forget about your trauma because that's not the

Gina Moffa: 24:36

work. Absolutely. I always say do you think you're getting a cure for trauma? Like think again? All we can really do is work with the intensity levels and that's the same with grief. You know, it's like, there will always be triggers. And I think that's the hard part and so many therapists out there like I hate the word triggers, but you know, whatever you want to call it awakenings or re experiencing but A trigger, right, since everyone knows the word, right, they come out of nowhere and there, it can be olfactory, it could be memories, whatever it is. And it's working with that to the point where it doesn't intrude upon your life as much, and where the intensity level changes. And so whether I'm doing grief work or trauma work, to me, it's always about measuring the level of intensity, and not about totally eradicating, whatever you've come in here to feel. Because most of the time, people don't want to feel bad, right? It's like, yeah, I don't want you to feel bad either. But you have to feel bad, right, you have to feel bad for a while until you feel less bad, and then less less bad. You know. And that's sort of kind of how the journey goes. And then sometimes you'll feel bad again, for one day, or a week or whatever it may be. That is the journey. And that is the healing journey. And the hope is that you just are not going through that alone. And that by the time those times come up, that are really hard again, or you're triggered by something. And it's feels like it's going to knock you down. Your work and therapy or your work with your resources have given you the tools to get through that in a different a new way. And that's the hope for it all. Like that's actually the work. So it doesn't feel as bad as it may be if you've started since day one.

Steve Bisson: 26:20

I agree wholeheartedly. I think that what my sentence usually is, is like, oh, you know how many humans I fixed in my career? Zero. Never fix the person in my life.

Gina Moffa: 26:32

Exactly. They're like, well, what are you doing this work for?

Steve Bisson: 26:36

Right? And I always answer the same thing. And like, I want you to develop the skills, and we'll give you 14 tools. You can use two of them, you can use one of them. Or you can choose none of them. And that's up to you. I'm not going to tell you what to choose. But you need to do it yourself. Yeah. Because I can't do the work, I can give you the tools to help you get through it. Yep, that's how I give the visual.

Gina Moffa: 26:56

I love it. I kind of just call myself a traveling companion. Where it's much more poetic. It's less like hands on like, your sounds like great. You're like, Oh, I'm gonna walk away with tools. Me I'm like, I'm gonna walk with you on the country roads. Right? But,

Steve Bisson: 27:13

but it's also telling people like, you know, you also can't take those tools and knock yourself out with it.

Gina Moffa: 27:18

Exactly. fine point. But it's

Steve Bisson: 27:21

all the tools and like, Oh, I'm gonna have some people like, oh, yeah, I have all these tools. I'm like, Yeah, you're taking the hammer and you're hammering yourself in the head. That's not how that hammer works.

Gina Moffa: 27:31

Yet a lot of that to

Steve Bisson: 27:33

your hammer goes the other way on something else in order for you to make the hammer efficient?

Gina Moffa: 27:38

Yes, I think giving tools and not teaching them how to use it eventually, right? It's like people are going to do what they're going to do with whatever information they have, based on their own history of self sabotage, or whatever it may be. And so all we can do is really walk alongside them while they're doing it and show them a different way. But that's the humbling part of this work is that we don't fix,

Steve Bisson: 28:04

right? And I've also joked around with some of my clients who say, No, I really want to be fixed. I'm like, Oh, I'm gonna give you some therapists that have the ego to think to fix people, here's a few names. I don't have that ego.

Gina Moffa: 28:17

And with you, that's why we're friends.

Steve Bisson: 28:20

Yes, we are. We don't fix.

Gina Moffa: 28:23

We don't fix people. And it's a humbling, it's humbling work. It's a privilege to be with somebody, while they're in the hardest time of their lives. For the most part. It's not for the faint of heart, for sure to be able to withstand that, even as a therapist, right to not want to jump in and save. But to allow them to have those experiences. It's really humbling, when it can sometimes feel like at the end of the day, like we're crawling to the edge of our humanity with all of this work. But having the understanding that we're not there to fix, we're not there to cure, we're not there to take away, we're not there to skirt, the real work is the biggest gift that I think we can give. But we witness and to give what we know obviously, it's what we're trained to do, but but to watch.

Steve Bisson: 29:15

One of the things that I've I can't say I do it every time because I'm not a perfect human being just like everyone else. But when people have a hard session, they share a lot. At the end of the session, I said I just want to thank you for trusting me. And people like well, you're my therapist, and like yeah, it's not a given. And don't take that, like you talked about the humility and the humbleness that you have. Again, that's why we're friends you. I take it as a huge privilege. And I always tell my clients Thank you. And they're they're like, so you shared really horrible stuff. And you thank me, like Yeah, cuz that's a privilege. I don't think you told a whole lot of people about that. Yeah. So remembering the that stuff is very important. And again, listening to finding your way through therapy. Gina Steve, one of the things you also mentioned is taking a holistic approach. I'm a Reiki provider. And I love Reiki. I also talked about spirituality in my sessions. Yes, we're not supposed to talk about religion. But again, me and supposed to us are not really friends. But I think that embracing some of those holistic spiritual approaches are important. And you mentioned that you do that, too. How do you do it in your work?

Gina Moffa: 30:26

100% I think the truth is wisdom in our work is whatever works. It's looking at where that person finds their meaning. Or has it formerly found their meaning how they grew up that worked for them, or didn't work, you know, I think it's it's tuning into what their strengths are tuning into what, where they navigate, a lot of people found me because I wrote something on my Psychology Today profile a million years ago, about taking a more mindful approach. You know, I started meditating, I think it's like, fifth 1314 years at this point. And it saved me, it really did, I was going through a really terrible time when I started this mindfulness journey with myself. And it really brought me to a new place of being able to sit with difficult emotions. And so it was the first time that it introduced to me that my body plays a part, my body plays a part in all of the way that I feel, and all the ways that I can work with the emotions that come up and even control the thoughts or at least understand the thoughts, or stop the thoughts from becoming feelings or stop the feelings from becoming, you know, self sabotaging thoughts or self destructive thoughts. So that's kind of one way that I look at it. But I have people that are like, I have a moon deck in my office. So people would be like, Can I pull a card today, you know, there's some people that want to pull a card and see what comes up. And that, interestingly, spawns the most, I think, like, heartfelt but helpful information about their history, or things that come up that we don't, you know, may not be on the agenda, you know, a long time ago, I was EMDR trained to so I don't I don't practice EMDR anymore. I can't really it doesn't work for me to do it remotely. At some point, you know, I will go back to doing something like that again. But I think spirituality is such a big part of my life, that it's hard for me to hide it. Although if somebody comes to me, and they're all science based, or whatever, I'm gonna go with where they, I'm gonna go with their belief system, I'm not going to push my own. But if somebody comes to me with faith in God, believe me, we're going to talk about it. We're gonna go there, because that's what works. But it's not our agenda.

Steve Bisson: 32:43

That the sentence of whatever works, is something that I share a whole lot. So I don't know, maybe we're related in a route, like, you know, past life or something. Because whatever works really is resonating, that resonates. The whole appeal resonates as a treat a treat treated provider as myself. And you do too. There's a lot of things that you brought up there. You know, whatever works, and I've shared this, I think on the podcast, and if I have just, you know, fast forward 30 seconds, if not, I mean, I one day, I had a guy who struggled with a lot of alcohol issues. And he was on parole. The parole officer says, we don't know what to do, we want don't want to put him in jail. We want to keep him in the community. So yes, parole officers aren't nice people, too. So he came in, and he's sitting with me, and he looks at my desk, and he's like, what's that? There was a small Buddha. Buddha, was Buddha do talk a little bit about the Buddhist principles and all that. Can I have it? I look at him. I'm like, you know, stay sober. It's like, yeah, like I hear that keeps you sober, do it. And, again, I don't know where this guy is. This is a story from 1012 years ago. He stayed sober for the rest of his time. And people like, what was the treatment? Have you put that in your treatment plan and said, there's no treatment plan? It worked? I don't really care what works?

Gina Moffa: 34:06

Yeah. Your transitional object was everything. Sometimes it's what people need. You're absolutely right. I mean, I remember doing like music therapy with people and like, pick out the lyrics of the song. That is how you feel whatever it may be. There's no method, there's no training for that. It is just what, you know, part of our job, actually, the biggest part of our jobs is to work on the relationship and to make the relationship itself healing. I think more than any kind of trainings that we have, it is going to be the consistency and validation of our care and support that heals and that helps people through to the other side to be that template for a really consistent, loving person in their lives that they may never have had.

Steve Bisson: 34:58

I really feel we are really connected in so many ways, what I, you know, I tell a lot of my clients to is that part of my job may not that's not doing CBT and whatever names that we can use, I need to demonstrate what a healthy relationship looks like. Yeah, yes, it's a professional relationship. But I want to show you what a healthy relationship with good boundaries that are respectful. And most people kind of like resonate, like, yeah, that's why I trust you this. There's just not me in this world. There's gotta be other people like me out there. So go out there. And remember to pay attention to what a healthy relationship may look like, I think that's part of our job to therapists

Gina Moffa: 35:38

100% 100%, I'm so glad you're doing it too. It's so like, you find therapists who are doing what you do and making a difference and helping people just find the love that they may never have gotten. I remember people saying in my social work degree, like you're not supposed to love your clients. And I can say wholeheartedly I love every single dang one of them past and present, and how fortunate couple How fortunate to for me.

Steve Bisson: 36:10

And I think that to be truthful. And again, if this is breaking a wall, sorry, but this is the point of finding your way through therapy. I find it a lot more difficult if I don't find something lovable about the client I'm working with. Yeah. And if that's breaking a wall, hey, welcome. I'm just an honest guy. And I'm not saying that I reject them. And I try to find something lovable about everyone, because I think everyone can have something that's redeemable about them. But I think that the say that we don't love our clients, it's just, we're lying to ourselves. If we say that,

Gina Moffa: 36:44

yeah. And I think that's what I love about more modern therapy, you know, that, you know, psychoanalysis and psychotherapy from the Freudian days or more traditional, and a lot of people are coming out of those programs, which can be beneficial for people, right, and I'm not knocking them. But I think that there's so boundaried that it, they're just a blank canvas. And I think it's not realistic, I think, I think people want to relate to real people so that when they go out into the world, they can believe that real people can care and love them and validate them too. And not just a blank canvas, you know, that they have to imagine in their world. I'm glad that our field has modernized enough to come with the times that we are humans to. And that's sort of what a lot of this podcast is about today's our own humanity also alongside theirs. And I think that's what makes it a beautiful relationship to

Steve Bisson: 37:40

write. And I think it's important to be human, as a therapist. Sometimes you one of the things that people don't say, eventually they kind of like also relate to it, because they sometimes ask me how I'm doing. I'm having a hard day. I'm like, That's so good today. I'll get over it. But that's how I'm feeling. But I don't make it about me. But I kind of mentioned if they ask a question, I might give some superficial answer what's going on? Yeah, we're gonna go into, you know, my kids. And my, I will I will talk about just like, oh, you know, tough time with a friend or tough time with people relate to that. And then eventually, they tell you how they feel because you were honest about how you felt totally, again, mimicking that behavior. I think it's therapeutic.

Gina Moffa: 38:23

I agree. I haven't done that yet. I mostly only if I'm like, tired or I'm sick. And I've shown up sick to the session. Because I don't want to cancel. You know, there'll be like, Wow, you look bad today, or something. And I'm always grateful that they can share how they really feel. Tell them I really feel you know, and we can find humor in it. But yeah, I think it's so interesting, because I remember a time early in my, in my work where I was really, really sick. And somebody was like, how are you doing? And I'm like, Fine, I'm totally fine. Right? And it turns out that I was about to be septic. I Jesus had a kidney infection, and kidney stones that were so bad, and I was in such terrible pain, but I wouldn't cancel and I was sitting there like, everything's great. Like, tell me what's going on. And it was like a normal session until I started sweating. You know, and as at the 45 minute mark, I nearly passed out had to go to the hospital and the ER Doc's were like, if you didn't come today, you would have died. Jesus, and you know, because you were really really sick. And I was like, Wow, I can't even I can't even believe that. Like I didn't, I wasn't myself that I just kept putting work first. You know, it taught me you know, now it's like, what was I thinking? Like, I was nothing I was just like this needless person and nearly lost myself. totally right.

Steve Bisson: 39:53

But I think when I think that we teach ourselves like through, I'm not bashing my school or your school, any school. Do you need to be selfless in therapy? And sometimes we misinterpret that as you just show up. Even if you're like, almost septic and dying. Yeah, you show up. Yeah. And you know how besides that, obviously, that's kind of like a, you know, a touchstone issue here, where you kind of like, Oh, my God, I can't do that anymore. How do we kind of teach not only and I think clients sometimes do that, too. I don't think it's just therapists. How do we teach people to go on to set for this? It's okay to miss a session. It's okay. Not to be there. How do we teach people?

Gina Moffa: 40:35

Yeah, I think continuing to give reminders, right. I think that's what I do on my Instagram most is give reminders on stuff and permission slips, right, I need them myself. You know, it's okay to sit down and rest. Oh, really? Oh, okay. Like, oh, it's something you know, it's so stupid. But like, we need to hear these things over and over again, sometimes before we can believe them. Or we can take them in, I think, consistently saying it's okay to our clients, if they're, if they need to miss something, or they need to take care of themselves or whatever, just over and over and still showing up as us to show them that there's no punishment. There's no adverse effects from them being them. But I think the flip side is for us to sort of work with the guilt that comes up when we are not there, or we need to be human also, just really been hard. It's been I think, my edge right there is how do I, how do I still put myself in my self care when I preach it to so many people? How do I work with my burnout, and give myself the time of day to heal, so that and fill my own cup so that I can continue to give and not be an energetic deficit all the time. And I think that just being completely transparent, that has been something I've really struggled with, especially since the pandemic,

Steve Bisson: 42:01

if it can't help you throw it out there. But in mid March, I actually went, like I took a week off for my mental health. And at first, I was just telling clients and rescheduling, not saying anything about it. And then at the end of the week, I'm like, I'm going to record something I may or may not put on my Instagram, which is still on my Instagram if you want to go to it. But I kind of said, you know, like, I'm burnt. And it's not because one client, it's not, Oh, John Doe's trauma really got me or Jane DOE's grief process got me it was just a accumulation of stuff. And I think it's like two minutes and 30 seconds pretty quick. And I recorded it held it. Because now I was going through my whole is the NBCC going to tell me that and and that's, that's a National Board of certified counselors, that you're not supposed to reveal yourself to your clients, you're not supposed to tell them that because they might personalize the attack. And I sat on it. And then on Saturday morning, I'm like, What the hell am I gonna lose? Yeah, if I do that, the worst thing is that I made to two people may not get it. And that's okay. But maybe a lot of people will get it. And when I did put it on there, I was like, it's one of those times where I'm sitting with my phone, like, I'm waiting for that negative reaction. I think Gatling Oh, my God is my favorite comment about that maybe this helps you maybe I'm doing your therapy now. But someone who is a therapist wrote to me and said, You're setting the bar high Steve, your honesty and your ability to be yourself and say that I have limits to and I gotta take care of me. You set the standard pretty high for a whole lot of therapists wasn't my goal, by the way, was just trying to be honest and be myself. But I think that it, it we we tend to think that where people are gonna judge us maybe in a negative light or see us in a different light because of it. If anything, I think that not only do my clients see me in a different light in a good way I feel therapists do. And people who just follow me, I've also said you know what, that's kind of hard to do. And I give you a lot of credit.

Gina Moffa: 44:11

I didn't see this for some reason. I gotta go check this out. I need to share it with everybody far and wide. No, thank you for that. Because it is true. It's it is really hard to do that.

Steve Bisson: 44:25

I've had I've been back. Obviously, this is gonna be released a little later. But I've been back for a few weeks in my, my office. I've had a few people asked me, Hey, how you doing? And I said, I'm good. I'm here, but I'm not good. I probably won't be here. And I said but this session is about you. And I thank you for checking in with me. But this is about you. So I feel like you can be ethical while breaking pushing the boundaries a little bit and people respect that sincerely more than if I Don't think you are that way. But some robotic therapist, I know that psychoanal analytic stuff I can talk for a long time because there is good and bad to it. And just like CBT, frankly, yep. But I think that learning to be okay with not being a robot. I think my clients always like to, again, I've been back a few weeks, and a lot of them are like, I'm happy. You said that because if I need a break, I feel comfortable telling you. And I'm like, that's, if that's all I could model for 10 people, then I've made a victory. That's a big

Gina Moffa: 45:32

deal. Yeah. Well, so you've modeled it for me.

Steve Bisson: 45:37

I hope I did. In the psychoanalytic stuff. It was funny when you mentioned that because I was thinking about, you know, psychoanalytic, I mean, we were past CO putting cocaine into our patients, which was good and psychoanalytic stuff. I've fallen in know, a lot of reading of Carl Jung and the masks and all that. So I embrace that part of psychoanalytic theory a lot better. But one of the things that psychoanalytic does, right compared to other treatments, in my opinion, is that you have to be in treatment in order to become a psychoanalytic therapist. So I just found my therapist, finally, right was out of a therapist for four months, it took me a long time to find someone. And hopefully, I haven't met him yet. Hopefully it goes well. But I know that therapy is probably part of what was missing, too. And when when I was having a struggle, have you ever been in therapy?

Gina Moffa: 46:31

Absolutely. I was in therapy, I want to say since like 20 years old, you know, pretty consistently through my 30s. Yeah, and interestingly, I took a break when my mom died. And you would think that that would be the time that I would be in therapy. But there was so much I needed to process and I I wanted to keep working. I mean, there was so much happening that I just didn't have the time to feel at that particular time. And I knew it would happen, but I just wasn't in place at that point. But you know, I think you and I talked about it, I am gonna go back. I'm gonna go back. I think it's, it's really good for therapists to be in therapy every so often it doesn't have to be constant. But I think checking ourselves, especially during burnout, but also that amount of self care I haven't done in a while, which is to invest in myself in this way. I'm asking other people to do it, but I'm not doing it. So I'm practicing what I preach. Interestingly, I'm having a bit of a hard time finding someone because I don't want someone in my network. And I don't.

Steve Bisson: 47:42

But I relate wholeheartedly, yeah,

Gina Moffa: 47:45

but I'm also looking for something really specific at this time in my life, right? I think in different times of my life, I was looking for something different. And this time, I'm looking for some thing with a more spiritual edge to it. So my, my search continues, but I can't recommend therapy more. And I'm looking forward to when I finally find someone will have to do a part two,

Steve Bisson: 48:06

you already stole the words out of my mouth. Not only are we going to do part two for talking about that, we're gonna do a part two about your book. Oh, yeah. You know, it's funny, because in my early 20s, even when I started as when I got my master's, that's when I started going to therapy. But even there, I was, like, embarrassed to tell people I was in therapy. How can a therapist be in therapy? And nowadays, I'm like, talking about I'm in therapy, I gotta go see my mom, not now. But I will be in therapy. Or when I had a therapist, my therapist kicks my ass on a regular basis, in a good way. Because I my last therapist, I've always right, I'll always share this, I shared the story of my clients, because I'm very direct as you figure it out. I say my my therapist, I went in for 15 minutes and started talking and after 15 minutes, she's like, Oh, now that you've told me all the therapy bullshit that you knew, how about you tell me about yourself? And I'm like, You're my therapist. You understood what I was doing right away? Love that.

Gina Moffa: 49:06

I need that person's name immediately.

Steve Bisson: 49:08

She doesn't practice any.

Gina Moffa: 49:11

Oh, my God. Yeah, back in.

Steve Bisson: 49:14

I know. But you know, it's hard. So. But yeah, I think that that's what I tell people is a therapy needs to be the name of my business is actually straight to the point therapy. I love it. But I think people don't understand that I can be supportive, despite being straight to the point. And showing the two can coexist. Again, we talked about this middle ground at the beginning, and I come back to that is that you can be supportive of someone while being more direct. Yeah.

Gina Moffa: 49:43

I think people appreciate it. I know I appreciate it too, you know, but I think I think we're at the point now, where we really don't have it doesn't feel like we have the time to beat around the bush.

Steve Bisson: 49:57

Between the pandemic and the war nuke Rain, and other things that people are going through. I've confessed to first responders that I know that I think we're gonna have a very busy summer in a negative way. If people can't find that middle ground, because you're already seeing it, I know, I'm not quite up on my New York City information. But I know I've seen it in Chicago I've seen in Boston.

Gina Moffa: 50:22

And crime is really, really bad here right now.

Steve Bisson: 50:26

And I think it's because people don't have like, we have inflation that's kicking our butt. Yeah. And then we have the isolation that we've had for so long and found their self serving bias with different people, which means that basically, we go with what we agree with versus what we don't agree with. And now you got to go into community, and you got to be able to confront people who might agree or not agree with you, or test your boundaries or test things that you might believe. And I think that people cannot take that dissonance right now.

Gina Moffa: 50:57

Agreed. I think it's that I think there's no resources, there's no mental health services that are enough. So I yeah, I think people are really desperate. But it, it also is pretty scary. So everyone just has to constantly be more on alert, and watch, watch what's around them. But I think you know, whether it's now or anytime when you live in a city, it's the alert, you know, the time of like, drowning out the world, or just listening to your life as the soundtrack is on hold for a while. You're not the main star of the show, you know, right now. So now it's like, just be alert, I think the smart anyone who lives in a city of any kind around the world, this is the time to look around you and make sure that you're putting your safety first in this way by being just as aware as you can be. And if you see something, you say something, as they say,

Steve Bisson: 51:52

challenge your narrative,

Gina Moffa: 51:54

and challenge your narrative, especially that

Steve Bisson: 51:56

especially that we win. I love New York City. I grew up in Montreal, south shore of Montreal, but I say Montreal, it's a lot easier to say. And was in Montreal lot. I'm fairly far from Boston, but in the Boston area. And when I go to New York City, I just love the city. But even walking through San Diego a few months ago, I did feel the shift, I went to Boston I felt the shift. Yeah. And I think that, you know, I haven't been to New York City, I have to go there soon. I miss the city. You feel a shift in a whole lot of like the feeling and I don't know how to really describe it. Otherwise.

Gina Moffa: 52:36

It's exactly it's exactly it. I think people you know, although interestingly, real estate is through the roof right now, you can't really get anything rental or sales, everyone's moving in and scooping things up. So it's an interesting separation of the worlds right, because real estate is so expensive right now, and you can yet there's such low inventory, because people are coming in and spending that money. And then there's the people who can't afford anything. And they're robbing people, you know. And so it's it's an interesting culture clash of really what's going on in cities right now. And the economic disparity that we really have to look at, continuously look at, but

Steve Bisson: 53:16

I remember walking around Brooklyn, years ago, and I went there about five years ago for a presentation and little change. But I was there and maybe a couple years ago, right before the pandemic. the gentrification of Brooklyn is kind of like, like for someone who only goes every couple of years, it really like whoa, it really hits you.

Gina Moffa: 53:40

Yeah. And it's a lot like that everywhere, even Harlem and you know, Washington Heights, it's, it's really hard. And you know, where are people supposed to go? You can't afford your home or you've grown up? It's really scary. So I think it does, in some cases, I'm not saying that's any of these neighborhoods or whatever. But I think it does drive some people to do things to survive.

Steve Bisson: 54:02

Yeah, we're not we're not picking on any boroughs in New York, or

Gina Moffa: 54:05

any boroughs. Except Staten Island. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. There's amazing people in Staten Island. Just kidding.

Steve Bisson: 54:15

The standard is to pick on jersey or Rhode Island for people in Massachusetts. That's just a standard. I love it. I

Gina Moffa: 54:22

love it. And it's our standard to pick on Staten Island. But

Steve Bisson: 54:26

hey, somebody lived in New Jersey and Rhode Island. I'm just kidding.

Gina Moffa: 54:29

Install through love. It's all through love. But no, it's been so good to talk to you about all of this, like a friend.

Steve Bisson: 54:36

And I you know, you will be invited again.

Gina Moffa: 54:39

I appreciate that I made it through.

Steve Bisson: 54:42

And definitely when your book comes out. I know I won't be your first one. But I definitely want to be in part of the interview process for you because I really look forward to reading your book.

Gina Moffa: 54:54

Thank you so much. And likewise, you have a great book out too. So I love that we're both doing this Great work together humbly. And that we get to write and you know, and use what we know and what we're learning to continue to reach more audiences. So.

Steve Bisson: 55:11

And how do people find you? I know you get a lot of calls already. But how do people find you?

Gina Moffa: 55:15

They can go to my website if they want to. It's Gina marpha.com. Mo FFA. And they can find me on Instagram at Gina Mafa. LCSW. Yeah, I mean, that's the easiest way they could Google me and a whole lot of things come up articles and podcasts and whatever, maybe this one. And yeah, I'm happy to always talk to anyone who wants to reach out.

Steve Bisson: 55:40

Well, I recommend highly your Instagram obviously. Definitely hope people go and see your work. And you know, when your book comes out, I can't wait to read it and then have a discussion with you see, the book process is rollercoaster Yes. That's sometimes you want to get off in the middle. But it's really worthwhile to get to the end.

Gina Moffa: 56:04

Well, thank you for that. Since I'm in the beginning, I'm in a hurry up and wait phase.

Steve Bisson: 56:09

Yeah, you're going up that that you know that little

Gina Moffa: 56:13

from the getting an agent to the getting a publisher, you know, now we're in the wow, there's all of this now you actually have to sit down and write. So that's what phase I'm in. So I'll be in touch when I'm when I'm in that roller coaster part when when I started to turn upside down, you'll be my first email.

Steve Bisson: 56:29

Perfect. Well, thank you for your time. I really appreciate it, and can't wait to connect again.

Gina Moffa: 56:37

So thank you. Likewise, likewise, and thanks for everyone for listening and being here with us.

Steve Bisson: 56:43

Well, this concludes episode 46 of finding your way through therapy. Gina MOFA. Thank you so much for coming onto the show is a great interview. I hope that everyone enjoyed it as much as I did. In the next episode, and actually the next two episodes, we will be talking to Jen Nakai, we're going to be talking about the COVID pandemic, how it affected people how has affected our thought process, how it affects a lot of different things in our lives right now. So I hope that you join me for that episode. Please like, subscribe or follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for information, educational, and entertainment purposes. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor or therapist for consultation.