E.48 Why We Need To Challenge Our Own Views And Self-Bias With Jenn Nakhai, LICSW

In this episode, we invite Jenn Nakhai back for a follow-up on our last episode. We actually briefly touch on our original subject, which was the effect of the pandemic and the impact on substance use issues, which includes a spike in fatal overdoses, but we deviated and we talked about racism, sexism, and how we can change our pre-conceived notions and bias.

Talking about misogyny and racism in a smart, intelligent way can be difficult but Jenn did an excellent job at presenting it so we can address these social injustices, as well as how our brains processes that information.   We needed to look at it so we can move forward and accept that discourse, challenging ourselves can lead to forward thinking.

You can find her counseling website here .

You can find her Instagram here and here .

Transcript

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Steve Bisson: 0:01

Hi and welcome to finding your way through therapy. I am your host, Steve Bisson. I'm an author and mental health counselor. Are you curious about therapy? Do you feel there is a lot of mystery about there? Do you wonder what your therapist is doing and why? The goal of this podcast is to make therapy and psychology accessible to all by using real language and straight to the point discussions. This podcast wants to remind you to take care of your mental health, just like you would your physical health. therapy should not be intimidating. It should be a great way to better help. I will demystify what happens in counseling, discuss topics related to mental health and discussions you can have what your thoughts, I also want to introduce psychology in everyday life. As I feel most of our lives are enmeshed in psychology. I want to introduce the subtle and not so subtle way psychology plays a factor in our lives. It will be my own mix of thoughts as well as special guests. So join me on this discovery of therapy and psychology. Hi, and welcome to episode 48 of finding your way through therapy. I am Stevie. So if you haven't listened to Episode 47, you probably should because this is going to be something that's a continuation today because I'm meeting again with Jen Naki. Jen is the founder and CEO of eon counseling in Massachusetts. She has a few offices across the state. She has been someone I've known for a while through another agency. We work together for a few years. And she's just very interesting. I the first time we've had such a fun time in the first episode, we're like, hey, mine might as well do too. So I think we had planned anyway to do too. But we just keep on talking and talking. So hopefully, you enjoyed this second episode with Jen Nikai. Hi, and welcome to finding your way through therapy, returning guests. But this time, we didn't wait a whole season, the last episode last interview of the season, and we ingenue we would just Yap it away in the first episode. So we were definitely going to do a second episode. And instead of waiting, we're going to do it right away. So Jen Mackay is gonna introduce herself in case you don't know her, but we just had a conversation. So hopefully you go back to that. But Jen, welcome again, to finding your way through therapy.

Jenn Nakhai: 2:15

Thank you, Steve. Thank you for having me. My name is Jennifer Mackay and I'm a therapist licensed in Massachusetts. And I work with children, adults, individuals across the lifespan, couples and families in this company, Aon counseling, you

Steve Bisson: 2:33

know what I think about it, all the stuff we've talked about, we've worked the spectrum literally between me and you, we probably have seen every age, gender, race racist. Yeah, we've really, really gone through the gamut of ethnicities and everything else. So I think that's why we get along so well.

Jenn Nakhai: 2:57

Even worked with people who are racists, yes. And including them as well.

Steve Bisson: 3:06

And we, we've definitely had a lot of good conversations off this podcast in regards to that. But always good to have someone who's been around the block with different things in their work, so that it really helps. I always say that it makes us humble. It helps us really understand how privileged we are. I'm a white male, I'm never going to pretend I'm not and I know them privilege. But sometimes it's just the small things, you realize how privileged you are. And when you're bitching about stuff, you're just kind of like bitching.

Jenn Nakhai: 3:36

Which is perfectly fine. Did your way

Steve Bisson: 3:40

Well, I have nothing right now. Except I gotta go back to what we said the last episode. I gotta go with that. So you know, we talked about the weight.

Jenn Nakhai: 3:48

Yeah. So for recap about weight.

Steve Bisson: 3:51

Yes, we talked about the weight of different things I've unchecked thoughts of us versus them or primal brain. We talked about the loss of control and how yoga can give us a little bit of that back and how we have friends who are no longer friends and people that we now connect even more. But I can't remember exactly the context of when we talked about the weight.

Jenn Nakhai: 4:14

It was the weight of the pandemic on therapists and the weight on relationships that like the election had and you know, different health decisions had even vaccinations, affected friendships and interactions, at least for me.

Steve Bisson: 4:33

So there was no fat joke involved here. And you know, it's also very ironic that, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm down a few pounds myself in the last last couple of months. Jen has, like, I can't remember you lost a lot of weight when you're an athlete. Now from what I understand.

Jenn Nakhai: 4:52

An athlete has evolved exactly 115 pounds in four years. So not bad.

Steve Bisson: 4:57

That is, and now you're like that. lifting like an athlete, apparently so,

Jenn Nakhai: 5:02

literally, yes. We have made it to the next level. I now know the secrets of the skinny people have shared it with me I had to pay them. They didn't just volunteer the information to me I had to pay them to tell me what the secrets were and now we have them. Turns out there's a lot of powders involved.

Steve Bisson: 5:24

Okay, well, you know, i i Maybe that's what I got to do. But I guess when we talk about powders, I know a lot of powders that were distributed during the pandemic,

Jenn Nakhai: 5:33

from people powders, those are different powders. I'm talking about why because I Whole Foods, Trader Joe's types of places. Okay, I'm talking about protein. That's been real.

Steve Bisson: 5:45

I just thought it would be a good joke to make,

Jenn Nakhai: 5:47

but okay, well, yeah, no, let's include all the addictions in there because I think a lot of people reported that during the Pandy. Their weight went significantly up. I'm talking about like 20 pounds and three to four months, which is really unhealthy has happened to me before. But imagine the crisis and the traumas of the world on top of getting unhealthier on top of a virus that is threatening your health. On top of needing to keep the best immune system available. No pressure, or anything. I definitely felt the pressure of keeping up with my health more than usual. And that also meant watching substances all substances. I could see even people around me drinking way, way too much. And even that affects your weight.

Steve Bisson: 6:41

Well, I think that sometimes we you know, you look at even like TV, whatever you use streaming services, or even like social media, we during a pandemic, it was almost normalized that you gotta get hammered. Because you know, hey, you have time to yourself.

Jenn Nakhai: 6:58

There's nothing else to do. Might as well drink. Everyone thought it was really funny to have a shirt that says like, It's wine time. I glass in my hand just for wine just at home drinking wine all the time.

Steve Bisson: 7:12

They don't know if this is water, or if it's a vodka and orange juice.

Jenn Nakhai: 7:19

And it looks like Crystal Light. It looks like crystal right.

Steve Bisson: 7:22

It's one of those supplements that you just talked about the treasure chests. Yeah, it helps fill me up during the afternoon. I've learned that

Jenn Nakhai: 7:32

Oh, yeah. With Casey. Does it have casein

Steve Bisson: 7:35

in it? I didn't know this was going to be a quiz. I believe so but I'm not 100% Sure. Probably. I think it's casein. I have a little creatine in there. Creatine tends to make me feel a little fuller.

Jenn Nakhai: 7:47

You have all your blockchain amino acids I don't even know what those are yet. I they just keep telling me about it. The skinny people keep giving me the secrets. But I start to study them. I don't I don't catch on right away.

Steve Bisson: 8:02

I don't either but I turned to food because that's always been my comfort. So you know a All joking aside, at one point, I did have a pretty bad problem with alcohol and knock on wood that's fairly under control at this point in the sense that I haven't drank excessively since 2003. And I'm very happy about that. That doesn't mean the problem is completely gone. Now as people misunderstand about addiction, it just doesn't poof disappear. It's there forever. But I also gained my other addiction is food. So not being able to go to the gym not running not getting out of the house. Because you know, I remember in the first reports like it's coming off the water. And so I went from one point I did weigh about 260 pounds, and I had brought my weight down which was great and I enjoyed it and all that and I went from that to I was almost 25 Which if you don't want to see me at BMI levels, because if I'm at BMI levels, you're gonna think I'm dying. So, but yeah, I gained like, I want to say about 20 pounds during the pandemic,

Jenn Nakhai: 9:11

you and the majority of the world's but I think it's

Steve Bisson: 9:15

because we turned to things that made us feel good, right because people misunderstand food. And you know, maybe it does fit more with addiction than I thought because you know, we get addicted to those carbohydrates. They make us feel good.

Jenn Nakhai: 9:28

Oh, Candy alone. I mean, you crave it you crave it like an essential nutrient and it's not. Not like that. It really isn't. I feel like I turned it around for myself because I was already on our wellness journey. Fitness track before the pandemic had started. I had already lost a good amount of the weight. But still, when I found myself having a little bit more time to really plan out what I wanted to eat, how I was going to access this food because that became an issue as well. I had to really examine my relationship with food during the pandemic and having it having the privilege of having it delivered versus having to go to the grocery store myself. That was a whole other trauma that I had not even thought about where it was like food insecurity. But on a totally different capitalism level of like, what if there's no more production of food? What are we gonna do? And I panicked, I wasn't sure it was going on. But more on a more sad note. Those of us who are lucky enough to turn to candy and food and have access to it. I think in the long run, we're better off than the folks who were already pretty far in the trenches of their addiction. And by the time COVID, really, really locked us down, they went into heavier substances, and heavier and heavier, more of it, to the point of like, I've lost a number of friends to COVID. And so the COVID symptoms related to secondary to the comorbid COVID symptoms of the folks who maybe were feeling really stressed out with work, and tried out some cocaine, and that was laced, right from accidental, like people who rarely use to the folks who are using all the time to going too far. So if good friends who I knew were self medicating, and then it just got to a point where the body gave up,

Steve Bisson: 11:36

right. And I think that we turned to any type of addiction to make ourselves feel better. And when we're dealing with stress substances are a great idea for so many people. And, you know, the the hardest part of the pandemic is that I, I heard this from a lot of people, including first responders and medical staff, like, oh, we have a lot less overdoses. I'm like, No, we don't, we have more bodies. Because people are using alone. People are isolated, people are using more than they should and they don't have kind of like that guy next to them or that woman next to them going, Hey, call 911 I think they're not responding.

Jenn Nakhai: 12:16

Yeah, we certainly didn't have that expectation of being at the office by nine in the morning, even just that is enough for certain people to be like, Alright, I gotta sober up to go in. Right? But you don't have that. So I feel like people were just using 24 hours a day, from affecting their regular emotions, their underlying baseline anger, and fear, and happiness, but also their sadness, and their anxiety. And there was everything from edibles, to really heavy stuff to alcohol being the most praised. I feel like on social media, everyone was just like, it's wine time. And I was like, All right, well, let's make a big joke out of it. Sure.

Steve Bisson: 13:01

Right. And even I think about THC as being another one that was kind of like normalized.

Jenn Nakhai: 13:07

As we celebrate it for the high holiday for 20 We're recording on for 20 We're recording

Steve Bisson: 13:11

on for 20 and it's not quite for 20 yet, but let's light one up for everyone. I

Jenn Nakhai: 13:16

don't I don't have anything on the podcast by the therapists.

Steve Bisson: 13:20

Yes. And we're just saying that we're supporting it by doing so. But I think that when we normalize it, you know, I People ask me all the time about oh, they legalized pot. Are you okay with that? Like, I have no problem with legalizing pot, frankly. But some people get really addicted psychologically, we need to realize that those things occur and I think that that's a lot of the stuff that happened during the pandemic too.

Jenn Nakhai: 13:46

Oh, for sure. Especially the ones that are the harmless drugs This is harmless. I use it for sleep. Well, that's Xanax is also used for sleep. Like you know, a lot of heavy narcotics are also used in the exact same way FYI. And we tend to rely on that a lot. And I can also see how a lot of people didn't lose their minds during the pandemic because of the edibles thank goodness so it's I'm glad that you were resting that you got some risks so there's you know, that medicinal side was very interesting to see how that played out as an essential item Did you know became an essential item? I did not know it was in the Central Massachusetts Oh yeah. dispensaries did not close. Only the recreational side closed. And then the medical side became an essential business.

Steve Bisson: 14:40

Wow, I did not know that. But I think that that's what I kind of get to also is like I heard many stories of people really losing it because they didn't have access to their edibles and order pot. So whether you believe it's physical and I'm not here to just, we're not here to kind of argue do that unless you'd want to I don't want to argue and but psychologically, you become extremely dependent on your THC, whether you're using indica or what's the other one.

Jenn Nakhai: 15:10

That's Eva,

Steve Bisson: 15:11

thank you very much.

Jenn Nakhai: 15:13

The expert here,

Steve Bisson: 15:14

I was gonna say you're an expert. So I'm sorry, right?

Jenn Nakhai: 15:19

Bust busted. Yes.

Steve Bisson: 15:21

But I think that if you I've seen many people tell me they got really, really angry when they didn't have access to it. So when people tell me it's not addictive, I'm like, really? Isn't it a little bit at least? Yeah.

Jenn Nakhai: 15:34

Oh, totally. Specially for sleep. I've seen clients struggle with being able to just fall asleep regularly, again, six months after weaning themselves off of any THC whatsoever. And it's intense, because all the emotions show up at night. Right before bed?

Steve Bisson: 15:55

Yes. Remember that mistake you made when you were seven years old? Think about now and try to sleep. Thank you.

Jenn Nakhai: 16:04

What did I not say to that person that I could have totally got them with? And then I didn't say by mistake and say it.

Steve Bisson: 16:11

Right? Or, you know, oh, I've got a great comeback to that. Do I have their phone number? Should I tell

Jenn Nakhai: 16:16

him? Should I send it? Should I post it now? No. Yeah, exactly.

Steve Bisson: 16:21

I had a perfect comeback. So that's all we think about

Jenn Nakhai: 16:24

all seriousness, I do feel like I lost people to straight up COVID pneumonia in an isolation. And then we also lost people to straight up overdoses. And that's a part that got me and even though I was totally ready, and I did podcasts on like, let's be ready for the second pandemic and what that looks like. And that's going to be a mental health crisis. It still shocked me.

Steve Bisson: 16:49

Right? I mean, we've talked about a particular person in the past. And I know that you put it on your social media, and that was a heavy loss for you.

Jenn Nakhai: 16:59

Yeah, I mean, this was one of the mental health champions that I've always loved and respected in our industry, taught me the most about bedside manner and taught me the most about just how to talk to people and comfort them. And he was such a good person working in a hospital, like such a good person to have in an emergency. That I feel almost guilty that, that nobody knew what he was going through to the point where we couldn't comfort him. Because there was no comfort, because at that point, it was just other substances. And like substances for the morning versus substances for at night. Right? You just worked 16 hour shift. Right? We'll be back at work and eight hours. But that doesn't count the hours it takes you to get to work.

Steve Bisson: 17:45

Well, I think that when you go home, and you you got to come off a 16 hour shift. I mean, I've worked in ers you have to, there's something about it that kind of like is like, be like, Oh, you just get home and go to sleep. Oh, yeah, it's that easy. It's not.

Jenn Nakhai: 18:02

It's definitely not especially now if you're dealing with trauma after trauma after trauma after trauma.

Steve Bisson: 18:07

And then let's add a pandemic over the top and everything that goes with that, too, for that poor individual. And just too hard sometimes.

Jenn Nakhai: 18:17

Yeah, in my friends case, I know I checked in with him a couple of times when I was going through my own inventory of like, here's the people I want to take care of. And I want to make sure okay, because I want to see you survive, and I would be scared without you in the world. Right. And I just remember him reporting back being like, yep, in the emergency room every day, you know, not changing anything about the rhythm. And I know, the rhythm of my life, as I had mentioned in the last podcast, changed significantly to a point where almost the same rhythm would not be tolerable for me anymore. Like we're doing with way too much before. And I actually appreciate this rhythm more. But he never changed that rhythm. And I think that quite literally killed him. It's not sustainable.

Steve Bisson: 19:03

You know, one of the hardest things and I do have friends who are in recovery, or have worked on the recovery or what have you. I think shame is so difficult for any type of addiction. Now you work in an ER and you do that work. I think that the and I'm not saying that shame is not very heavy everywhere else. But I think in our field, it's even heavy or if that makes any sense sometimes.

Jenn Nakhai: 19:31

I mean, look at what happened in the last podcast things that really heavy really quickly. And it was almost like shameful to talk about my emotions, but at the same time, it's like, Wait a second. This is a universal experience. We're all going through something different, worse, better, whatever. But a Yeah, amongst practitioners is like, do you have your therapist? Do you have your support team? Who's there with you? Do you live by yourself? We all need somebody at some At some point,

Steve Bisson: 20:02

right, but I think that you also touched about it last last podcast last week. And to me, it's a little bit of what the shame is too well, you know, it's sometimes self imposed. And sometimes it's also come from other people, it comes from other people. And again, I'm not having this issue right away, I'm gonna knock on wood. But let's say I do fall into something to help me sleep. Let's say I go to, you know, heavy duty use of Ambien. How do I bring it up to Jen? I mean, she's a practitioner, how she's going to perceive me, she's gonna see me next week. I think that that shame is extremely heavy in our field, in my opinion.

Jenn Nakhai: 20:41

Oh, yeah, people will see you as men seeking right away if you mentioned any sort of history with substances. And I mean, I see it all the time, even the way people have to go about obtaining their medications to maintain their sobriety. So even CVS is a big culprit of all that in just the way that they treat you as a see which medication you're picking up. It's immediately judgment, nothing but judgment right away. And it's like, really, because this person is actually doing everything they need to do. Their their mental health, essentially.

Steve Bisson: 21:16

And I think that that's what the stuff has happened. Also, through the pandemic, not only were we isolated, I think it was even more shameful to start talking about that.

Jenn Nakhai: 21:25

Yeah. Yeah. Why I tried to hold space as much and as often as possible, for as many people as I possibly could a lot of people held space for me for sure. I feel very lucky that I have that you've been one of those people. But I think the patriarchy plays into it. A lot of the times this idea that we are weaker, because we have emotions and reactions, right? is wrong. And it only hurts the people who want to appear to be stronger. Because of course, you're gonna have feelings.

Steve Bisson: 22:00

Well, and we're gonna have feelings that are screwed up. You might be a therapist, but I joke around and for all my therapist, friends don't take this personally. And if you do, talk to me, I joke around sometimes, oh, you're a therapist, you must be very stable. I'm like, oh, therapists are probably the most screwed up people I've ever met up there with nurses for the record.

Jenn Nakhai: 22:20

And primary care doctors. Oh, absolutely.

Steve Bisson: 22:23

And people like really? And I'm like, Yeah, really. And again, if any therapists doctors, or anyone who has a problem with that, please call me and I will discuss it with you. And I will prove my point. But because I know for me, I talked about the pandemic and you know, the substances, thankfully, knock on wood for real because I didn't fall back into that, thankfully. But I also know that even kind of like feeling weak. I've talked about in the last podcast and I've mentioned in, you know, in my my social media, even asking, like struggling for a week of just like, am I going to tell people I'm struggling? Was like, an I wasn't struggling for a week. I was struggling for a couple months. That's, yeah, that's fine. No, no, no, it's fine. For Jen's not mine. Fine for Steve. It's fine for Frank, but it's not fine for Steve. And I think that we carry that. I don't know what to call it. But bullshit roll is the best way I can put it. Because I'm, I'm no better than anyone. I'm just a human being. And I think that that's the hard part for us as practitioners. And yes, nurses, mental health, social workers, doctors. Yeah, we're no better than any other human being we just happen to have a different title.

Jenn Nakhai: 23:40

Yeah, I know how to handle your crisis in an emergency. Right, how would I be able to do it? On my own in the middle of my own crisis? No, sorry. That's not actually how it works. I wouldn't be able to apply the same principles to myself. It would be too easy.

Steve Bisson: 24:02

If it was like, my I'm truthful. I think we talked about this off air. But you know, like, We're a New Age therapist now. And what I call about new age as mean, like, Well, we do believe in rocks. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about like, for me, like if a client asked me how I'm doing, I'm gonna be like, if I'm not doing good, I'll be like, yeah, that great today, but I'm here. And as long as you don't make yourself the primary focus of the session, it's fine to say that, but I think it's hard for me to admit it to anyone because I even for me, like you talked about the patriarchy. I carried the whole like, we look professional bullshit. And I felt through the pandemic like I needed to be there for other people because you know, that's what I'm trained for. Unless I don't know what your school was. But I said this before. I missed the class where how to deal with a pandemic. I was probably absent that day. But

Jenn Nakhai: 24:59

what That's exactly what happened. We weren't there.

Steve Bisson: 25:04

And so trying to unionize ourselves is really hard. And I'm sure that you know, I think about your friend, and still sorry for your loss. And I know I didn't say it on the podcast, I know, we've talked privately about this. He must have felt so alone.

Jenn Nakhai: 25:18

And here's the thing. That's the part that gets me the most, because this was the most social, everyone loved him. He gave everyone everything all of the time, he was number one staff, because all the patients thought he was the best, he was the favorite. And it's true that he was the best. Like, I don't, I don't even mean it. And I was good. But it was because he trained me and he role models for me how to talk to people and how to handle certain situations or how not to react to certain situations, and how he would use humor and all that great stuff. It just, to me, it's so sad that at the end of the day, the one person who brought so many people so much joy in the worst days of their lives, because we were working in an inpatient psychiatric unit, so you don't get there. Unless something happened. Right? Yeah, actually locked up after you get locked up as a section 12. And then there's a section eight, nine, so So that's a different one. Right? That's when the doctors have reviewed the information about you and said, Yeah, you're gonna have to stay. Yeah, for a couple of days, actually, until we decide unless you want to stay here voluntarily, which is different, which I recommend, but he had a way of helping people through those moments. I mean, imagine waking up after a very serious suicide attempt, and you're hooked up to machines, because well, now you're in medical trouble. And this particular face is the one that brings you joy every day. And somehow we couldn't do that for him. So I feel like we failed him. We didn't know that this was going on at this level. Sure, it could have also been just like body's giving up. But I know that my friend was struggling, because he had been struggling just like the rest of us from the very beginning. I just think that nobody was able to be there for him in the same way. And it's sad, because that's a big loss for our entire community for our entire business. I mean, I wanted him to work in private practice, he was going to school to become a therapist, like a licensed therapist, because when when I met him, I was an intern. And then he just continued that track. But I kept pushing him and I was like, no, no, you'd be offense, that you'd be a better therapist and the rest of us Hello. And he never made it. And I feel like we weren't there for him in the in the way that he needed it. So that's really sad, unfortunately, and like that a bunch of people, I mean, good friends of mine, who are neighbors of mine, the police department posted on Facebook, the reason for their overdose, and it was a couple who died at the same time. At the same time together. Rich people, people with good businesses, wonderful networks, could have called any of us in a situation like I would have been there in a couple of minutes. But we had no idea, right that this was going on. And it's just like, it was so silent. And, and I hear you now what you're saying about not being able to talk about it had you just been able to talk about it, it would have been better, right? Someone is kind of like walking with you in hell, you know, it's like, I'm okay with being in hell, I just don't want to be in hell by myself.

Steve Bisson: 28:40

But we could never be in a crisis ourselves. All the time, though. I hold it as a privilege when people reach out to me in, I think that, sometimes when people get a negative reaction to reaching out for help, then it kind of like deters them from that. And instead of seeing someone as whatever they see it, I don't want to judge but for me, you call me. My client calls me, my client I haven't seen in three years calls me it's a privilege for me to feel that they feel that comfortable with me. And I think that for we can sometimes you can see it sometimes you don't. But for me, I think it's hard to kind of like, Alright, I'm having a hard time with XYZ doesn't matter what it is. Well, in a pandemic, Jen is also going through a pandemic, she probably doesn't have time, you know what, forget I'm just gonna do it on my own. And I think that that's the I'm just sharing my thought process. I don't have any particular problem right now. But that's kind of sometimes what happens is that that shame kicks in, because we talk ourselves out of reaching out for help to deadly, but you know, it happens all the time. The substance stuff and particularly in the pandemic, I've had a few people reach out to me because of that stuff. And they call me up and I'm like you they, you know, and I'm gonna say general story. There's no one story here. Oh, I just relapse. I'm always the weirdo that goes out, right? Like, what do you mean? All right? Well, you call me and you've trusted me with your information. That's amazing. Let's work together. Let's see what we can do. I might, you know, we'll figure it out. Yeah. And if you show the enthusiasm, sometimes it helps the individual not feel so ashamed. And the hard part during a pandemic is that we can always defer to while they're going through a pandemic, and they had their own issues. They've struggled with this. And I think that that plays a factor tremendously when you think about the higher rates right now of alcoholism, of cocaine use of THC use, and I don't think fentanyl is per se higher, which is more pure and more attainable. And it's being laced in other drugs that's causing a lot of the overdoses. Again, I'm not a statistician, but just my observation from afar. So I think that our job and maybe you can tell me more what you think. But our job is to kind of like work on killing the shame before it occurs.

Jenn Nakhai: 31:09

Oh, yeah, to establish the rapport so that way, you can call me with any question. I mean, I try to make it a such a comfortable environment, particularly for young women to talk about, like, female health things, ask me questions. Because when I was younger, and I was scared, and I didn't know what anything meant, I need to hear your question. So that we can I'll ask her like real quick, like, oh, no, this what's going on? It's simple. Here's what you do. But it's scary, especially during a pandemic, when access to doctors actually declined as well. Because I know a lot of people reached out for help. And for the very first time ever, in my company, we had a waitlist, again, with all the guilt in my heart of like, oh, how can we make people wait for this? I mean, that's why we've been hiring people left and right. It's just, there's not enough therapists to meet the demand. A whole that's a whole other podcast, just saying, like, the readiness and the access, and how quickly we can get to everyone. It is overwhelming. Actually, the amount of people looking for help right now. At the verge of like, I don't know if I can take it anymore.

Steve Bisson: 32:24

Well, I think it's a double edged sword, right? I think that for me, and I'm going to speak for me, but I do know at least 10 to 12 other therapists, during the pandemic, I've received a lot of phone calls, if this is my first time reaching out, I just can't take it. I'm anxiety ridden on the press. I want to drink all the time, or, and I'm just throwing out ideas. But you know, general calls, not all three, usually one or two of those. And then you take them on and you take them on because you have a big I have a big heart, I can think of like I said 10 to 12 other people have a big heart. But then it eats you up. Because it's not because the person like I said, I'm not. I've learned to have a healthy detachment for stories. Because if you work with trauma as much as I do, and you work with substance abuse law, as much as I do, you kind of like and I'm I can only speak for me, you learn this healthy detachment and not in a I don't care way, but I need to protect myself way. But I got to 150% of capacity. My detachment abilities were gone. And, yeah, I can say that my burnout that I talked about in the last podcast came from just wanting to help so many people, and then having to say no and breaking my heart. And I think that that's where we've come to such a head in this crisis of mental health and substance abuse counseling, let's not forget about the substance abuse counseling.

Jenn Nakhai: 33:51

That is straight up mental health. I know people like to categorize it as separate, it's the same as one, just one category essentially, like, it's so common. Even when families are not aware, it's way more common than people think it's one thing. So this has to do with mental health period,

Steve Bisson: 34:12

you're drinking, snorting or injecting, feeling whatever any type of substances is probably because you can't handle something mentally. So how can it not be?

Jenn Nakhai: 34:26

Yeah, you know,

Steve Bisson: 34:28

so I think that for me, the the crisis that we're going to have, and I think we can have a whole podcast on that. And you obviously know you're re invited if I have to say it out loud. But I think that the other crisis is that not only do we lost a lot of therapists to the pandemic, I know therapists who have overdosed, I've known therapists who have no longer in this field, because they've just couldn't take it and they know other therapists that went and to be perfectly honest, I'm part of that group to coaching is a lot easier. Coaching is a lot more man eligible, I don't need to deal with the insurance. It's not listening to traumatic histories or substances. It's helping them people in the here and now and moving them forward. And do you think that that's what part of the issues with substances and pandemic has caused in this country because before the pandemic, we were about 12,000 therapists short in this country? That's it. Well, that that was the number the APA standards stood for. So my guess is psychologist, but I'm not going to judge this study. I'm saying that that's what it was said. I don't know how many were short of but we're not only losing people to loss, period dying. People keep quitting. People feeling overwhelmed. And now we're having more and more people needing more and more support, which is, to me the greatest thing in the world, yet at the same time, also burning out therapists. And we're creating such a crisis right now that is very, very scary to me of what this is going to look like in five years for the mental health counseling therapy community.

Jenn Nakhai: 36:05

Yeah. It's funny you say that, because last year at the tail end of the election, couple therapists called me and basically said, Listen, I can't talk to people about this anymore, like I am at a at a point of not just regular burnout, but I cannot keep talking about the same atrocities over and over again. I'll give you an example. When the Black Lives Matter, protests happening, and we were watching video, after video of black men being shot and killed in different parts of the country, it almost seemed like we were averaging two or three a week. That deeply affected me, that deeply affected so many people, in fact, who came to therapy who were already engaged. And then the supervision with the therapists became. Alright, so you've been repeating yourself around this and everyone is bringing it to your attention, it feels like the world is ending. And there was a hilarious meme that came out. That is funny because it was true, but messed up. Where it showed it portrayed therapists as the violinists at the end of the Titanic, as the Titanic is sinking, we're just going to play some nice music for people to be able to at least die in a more comfy way in a more like, enjoyable way, at least we have some background music, you know, at least I have somebody here to enjoy this oppression with. And I don't have an explanation for it. And I don't know how exactly we got here have an idea of how exactly we got there. But as the hate crimes continued, because just because we had the presence of COVID, against Asian Americans, or Asian people in general. And then Black Lives Matter took a completely different turn. And every person who was killed in the last two summers, unnecessarily, in front of all of us live on Facebook night was a trauma that we all had to deal with. And I think that led to a whole lot of other issues, even for the people it didn't affect it affected. Hopefully, in a good way, in a way of like, knowing that, hey, we can't we this is not sustainable, either. And it's like, Oh, do we think it's gonna quietly go away, and also in standing with the people who were protesting? I feel like people needed to get that off their chest, that anger and that fear of being killed. Right, your old actual fire. I'm glad that it happened. It needed to happen. And in the event that we continue to kill people, it will happen more.

Steve Bisson: 38:49

And I agree with you. The only thing I won't agree with, it's not a full disagreement. It's the disagreement of, again, creating an environment where like, you're with us, or you're against us. Why? Because that's the that's the part that gets to me in regards to that, because I my favorite meme is about, you know, people who say, black lives matter. No, all lives matter. I said, Well, if I say Save the Whales, I didn't say the dolphins. I just said, save the whales. And people don't get that. And it's just about equality and treating people equally. And some people are more oppressed than others. But it becomes like, Oh, so you're with them? And I'm like, No, I work with cops all the time on the cops I work with, they're like, they're appalled about what happens that all cops are doing that either. We got to stop creating this mentality that you're one or the other. And I think that that's the biggest issue that I have in regards to like a lot of this thought process is that people watch on TV, they make their opinion on check thoughts. And either they turn around and they they go and they say one side or the other or if they have an opinion they don't feel comfortable talking Think about it, or people around them are not on the same page. You know what sounds like a good idea at that point. Shooting up, you know what else sounds like a great idea snoring away, you know what else sounds like a great idea drink, or smoking or what have you. And I think that that's the other. When we think about these dichotomies, which premiered, dichotomies are probably the one of the worst evils that we have. I mean,

Jenn Nakhai: 40:24

it also brings about change. But I

Steve Bisson: 40:27

also think that we need to start will bring change when we get to understand that we can meet in the middle. And maybe the middle is a lot more left than we want for some people. And maybe the middle is a lot more right than you feel for some people. But you got to stop thinking that it's going to be on my side or their side. Because on your side or their side is wrong sometimes. Well, I

Jenn Nakhai: 40:49

think it's it's difficult to apply that when we're talking about issues of eugenics and race, right? I think there is no middle ground between I want you dead, right now I get I hate you. You know, they're just, they're just is nowhere in the middle. To stand in there. There's no like, Well, I kind of hate you. So maybe I want you alive, but like oppressed? No. There's nowhere in the middle there. Either. We live for your die. Back to live for your die. Yep, we're going right, right back. Either we actually live for your die. Or it sounds like a lot of people are gonna die and burn because then for every action that goes unchecked, not just the thoughts, the actions that we all watch on Facebook Live, and then have a whole trial years later, turn up. And like we didn't all witness an actual murder over and over and over again, right, fueled by hate as an essential hate crime fueled by hatred for persons is a necessary race is just, you know, the lower hanging fruit type behavior, right? And it's just like, what did you think was gonna happen that everyone's just gonna kind of like, be like, you know, what? We're gonna be really nice to everyone. And like, they'll hopefully learn to be nice or no, not when specifically, we have set out agendas to create segregation. Right, we'll protect only the material goods have a certain class. Right? That is a very clear line that I can see. Like, there is no middle ground on this either. You're okay with everyone being alive, and everyone coming here and immigration, and abortion and all these things where it's like, all these black and whites moments of, you might need this, you might need that. When it comes to abortion. Again, if you're not a woman, if you don't carry if you don't carry a uterus, and suddenly you're scared that you're gonna have to use that uterus.

Steve Bisson: 42:56

I don't want to hear it. Right. Then we start legislating penises. I think we're going to

Jenn Nakhai: 43:02

have a where, when could we begin?

Steve Bisson: 43:06

I know when that's what I mean. Like for me, you when you say that? I laugh because I'm the same way. I'm like, I can't talk. I have an opinion. But my opinion is not really that useful. Because I have a vagina salad is.

Jenn Nakhai: 43:20

And yeah, that people are signing these laws and making abortions on accessible in nearby states. are white penises? How is how

Steve Bisson: 43:31

I love that we're on a podcast. And we can say that word very easily. Because, you know, if we were on TV, we'd be bleeped out for peanuts. I know you can't say any more people are too sensitive. That's the other part too, in my opinion. Like you brought up an excellent point. Yeah, I'm serious. I think you brought up an excellent point, though, because you're right, there's gotta be some black and white in there. But this is where the, the the logic that I come up with and I agree with you on that, too. Is that if I don't have an openness mind to think differently, and you brought it up? No, I don't know. You know, Jen, this is my way. This is my podcast. So it's going to be that's where the the whole black and white thing that I meant maybe perhaps I should have elaborated but that's what I mean that we can't have black or white thinking you got to be able to listen to new information and go know what kind of screwed up on that one.

Jenn Nakhai: 44:26

Makes sense. I didn't know that. Thank you for sharing that. Let me guess I didn't know.

Steve Bisson: 44:31

And I think that that's the stuff that I talk about when I say not going into black and white thought process. I don't know everything when I know if it's an assemble if that and I'm okay with learning every single day. So if I'm wrong, hey, I was wrong. And that's okay. So like that's what I mean about with the gray area maybe perhaps I didn't think about it and particularly

Jenn Nakhai: 44:52

the thing about it is that I love the paradigms coming together the practices and all that and it's Perfect. And I think these are moments and opportunities for us to bring about some real change. It's just that when it comes to diversity, equity and inclusion, that particular argument comes up a little too often. A little too often. When it comes to like, well, we have to meet somewhere in the middle, there is no middle ground between you wanting me dead and me staying remaining alive. There is no middle ground where you want me sick. Right? Right. You want me what you want me poor. You want me where living where? Now? So that's already

Steve Bisson: 45:30

happening? No, but I digress. Huh? I said, are people doing that already. But I digress.

Jenn Nakhai: 45:37

That's what I'm saying that it's just like, I've had to put us into the hole, like let's kumbaya all together and come together to find a solution. Because at this point, now, I just want to hear what people of color have to say about how they would like to be treated, actually. And I'm pretty sure it's gonna be somewhere around the lines of like, allow me to live right basics. And allow me to express myself when I have a problem. Listen to me, when I tell you that I'm having a problem. And then we'll be happily ever after or whatever. But as long as white supremacy continues to test my patience,

Unknown: 46:15

right? Again, it's,

Jenn Nakhai: 46:16

it's a totally different I mean, you know, the fact that you've worked with police doesn't necessarily put you in a particular position. A cop that is even likely to come to a therapist to therapy would probably not even be someone who thinks that way. You see what I'm saying is a totally different human. But I've certainly worked in correctional situations where white supremacy is being a dosed out in a healthy way every single day, and everyone's supposed to comply. And even when you complain to HR, it's a problem. Right? And then guess what, it'll be a predominantly white prison for sex offenders. Because that's very dominantly white crime. And it says, like, interesting that in this particular prison, the demographics are opposite. And then we have to exalted in some type of way, and even in a way that they structure their staff. Everything is very different. So I don't see it as one of those moments where we can come to the middle and no, in this case, when it comes to diversity, equity and inclusion. It is kind of black and white. It doesn't have to be US versus anyone. It should just be us actually. Ideally, it could just be us, but seeing as how you're excluding me, they now make a big deal about it. Oh, wiseguys.

Steve Bisson: 47:40

Right. I got it. I certainly get it and the stuff that I always remind myself and I said it, I think in the last podcast, I'll say it again, I'm not blind to the fact that I'm a white male. I am not blind to the fact of the privilege that I have. So might as well use that privilege for what I think is right. And if I'm exposed to something I may be doing, or people are doing that I did not see. Because I don't have that experience. I just don't. And it's not because I don't want to have that experience, or because I'm a jerk. It's because I don't have it, then I gotta be open to that communication and that feedback and that stuff. And that's okay. And there's nothing wrong with that. But I think that a lot of people are like, no, no, no, no, you know, you have to open your mind.

Jenn Nakhai: 48:24

I mean, it comes up even in medical communities. This is not just that correctional issue is not just a legal issue, it becomes a medical issue from doctors perceiving black people as having higher pain tolerance, so therefore not getting the medication is abusive, is sadistic. It's oppressive at a minimum, I mean, black moms are dying more during labor than anybody else. Why?

Steve Bisson: 48:49

Why is America rank in the middle of the pack for death at birth?

Jenn Nakhai: 48:54

best doctors in the world? What's going on? Why is it a particular patient group being affected only that's interesting.

Steve Bisson: 49:02

I can't remember what show was on but there's always a clip that I liked about how people say America is the best country in the world. And he goes, America is not the best country in the world. And he talks about all these facts, and everybody's jaws drop, and I'm sitting there going, why is your jaw dropping? I love my country. I love my countries, right? I don't think it's the best at everything. I just love my countries. And it's okay if they're not the best either I'm part of the problem or part of the solution but I can't just sit there and go Well, that's just how it is. And kind of like that stuff is the reason why I will go in the trenches if I have to for any type of situation. And if I don't understand the trench, I might say look, I'm scared. I'm afraid I don't understand this trench. Can you help me and that doesn't mean I'm going to necessarily jump in but please help me. And I think that's hard,

Jenn Nakhai: 49:53

alright, of like, research that people can also do if they're scared and cuff USD, you can research about a culture you can research, you know, you can Google it in the same exact way that I'm expected to Google and understand concepts in a language that is not my first language. Right? I think that we cannot put the burden of solving racism on people of different color. And instead of just saying, hey, you know what, we should really educate ourselves as much as possible, travel as often as you possibly can go to different countries see what it's like, because what I'm finding is that a lot of the folks who have these hateful ideas, and hateful thoughts have never been outside of this country. So of course, you would think it's the very best you've never been outside of here. But for example, I don't see you as a person who struggles with something like that, because you've lived in a different country. So. So you see the differences, like there are areas that are better in Canada than here, I hear the healthcare system is wonderful there in a different way than here. And yeah, it has its flaws. And there's things that we could definitely, you know, fix from here and take from there. And really vice versa. But unless we're traveling and seeing it and enjoying it and appreciating other people's cultures, foods, traditions, rituals,

Steve Bisson: 51:18

how we're gonna learn, as I know, a friend of mine this weekend about just that, because we're talking about how, if your view of Mexico is Porto, playa, playa, or whatever, where the resort is, or that you go to Jamaica, and you think that you know, where the resort you're in, in Jamaica is when Jamaican culture is, you have no clue what the culture is, you're just going to another country to America to buy, just gonna say Americanized, frankly, white western hemisphere, your situation, go to Jamaica and go to the village and go to a wedding. Now we'll talk that's going to be a little more authentic, you can go to Montreal and go to all the nice little, you know, touristy type of traps, as I call them, I can show you real Montreal in real life around there. I think that that's the other part is that, you know, not every family is like the Brady Bunch. Not every family is like the Cosby family. Not every family is anything you see on TV, real life happens somewhere else. And we need to realize that our experience with culture, going to Amsterdam, and going to the Red Light District is not a Dutch culture. Right? Now, that's the red light district in Amsterdam, and you're the right person there, because that's the tourist trap in the area.

Jenn Nakhai: 52:42

That's what attracted you to is like, Oh, I wish people could travel more often. And I think something interesting actually around this happened in Puerto Rico. At the beginning of the pandemic, suddenly, when flights became 3099. And flying and traveling became accessible to everyone. Suddenly, a lot of the people who invested in buying those cheaper tickets, were able to fly a little bit more. And then in the countries that they went to, either acted completely inappropriately, because they'd never been before. Or were faced with even more oppression from those countries, because they were like, well, these are not the American tours that we're used to this happened in Puerto Rico. Right? They can call all the people from Miami or hair off. And it was like, just because it's a person that is even darker. It's like, that's not a reason to hate them for being here. They're so open to the culture. So wanting to come here. Are people gonna act ridiculous everywhere they go? Yeah, probably. Are Americans more likely to do that, unfortunately. So I don't know why. But it was interesting, because in Puerto Rico, a little bit of a kind of like, it's not reverse racism, because that doesn't exist in that way. It was just more likely the reason why people didn't like a certain type of tours that we're pulling through, is because it wasn't people with a whole lot of money to spend. And it's just like, well, that's Is it because they're black? Or what do you mean, because we're black here, too. I don't see how that even computes, but it's a class struggle. So class, bias is a class hate bias.

Steve Bisson: 54:20

But we all have biases. I mean, when I talk about, you know, we went from talking about substance abuse and a pandemic to a lot of like, cry, like a real like what I consider like real life problems. When people ask me, Are you racist, say, yeah, yeah. And they're like, really? I'm like, Yeah, cuz I don't know everything. And I gotta learn. So I have isms that I need to challenge. So I'm not purposely

Jenn Nakhai: 54:43

fine. People tell me all the time. It's like, Well, you say racist shade all the time. I'm like, Sure. And yet, not really. And yet, I'm constantly fighting against it. And please, when you identify something oppressive that I've said, let me know. Right? And I will eat mediately look into this being like, I'm not racist, and I'm not this I'm not that it's like, actually, if I've acted in a way that I've hurt you, even if it was not my intention, I still hurt you.

Steve Bisson: 55:12

I don't speak Canadian. I speak English and French. Yeah. And, and I don't speak French Parisian either. I speak with Becker. And, and, you know, like I tell people like, again, that's it, you gotta challenge constantly. And if you don't challenge yourself, you're gonna get stuck in your ideas. And that's why like, you know, we all have boxes, and I'm always saying people, it's okay to have boxes, as long as you're willing to open them and kind of challenge them. If you have your box, and anyone who doesn't fit in that box is kind of like wrong, then that's what's racism, in essence come from because we all can be challenged in our views of the world. And that's okay. I don't see a problem with that. So I, I think that, you know, one day I gotta go down to Puerto Rico, I'm sure. And get learned we're learning a lot more than I know, because, you know, obviously, I just know what I know. And probably 50% of that is wrong anyway.

Jenn Nakhai: 56:13

Well, I know that every single time even I go to Puerto Rico, I fall in love with it all over again, the last time I went, I got to go to a cocoa farm. Never in my life. Had I seen cocoa that close up? Or where does chocolate come from? How do you make it? Right, but to have the actual fruit was just like I'm falling back in love with my own country all over again.

Unknown: 56:35

And it's not made by Nestle.

Jenn Nakhai: 56:39

All I know is a beat got me, okay, I got I got stung. All right, I got stung, and they just removed the stinger weeks later. So it was intense. Okay, I sacrifice to get there. It was amazing. And it was healthy and beautiful. And it made me fall in love with a different side of my island that I don't usually go to, it's actually in a Private Reserve, I would have never had access to get to there. But every time I've been to Jamaica, and every time I've been to these other islands, I try to stay as far away as possible from this tourist trap part. Especially when I go to Hawaii, for example, part of the United States, but they have their own culture going on and their own levels of colonization going on for hundreds of years. And the history is fascinating. And their language is fascinating. The food is incredible. The geography is crazy. Everything about Hawaii is interesting. But I would have never known that it will that it's very similar to Puerto Rico and the way it's being treated by the United States. Unless I have been there. I tried to learn as much as possible. And I have to say that for me personally, the weight of the world's ignorance around diversity, equity, and inclusion does get me to those points of feeling like, I can't do it anymore. I would like to use anything at this point. You know, get me whatever sugar is available, please. These are the times I know that we didn't necessarily mean to talk about this. And we kind of got to hear, but it is related. At least for me. I'm not a script. Yeah, now it just gets too unbearable levels for me all the time, all the time.

Steve Bisson: 58:20

And I think that this is a good conversation because it needs to be said in those ways, and needs to be discussed in that way. And that's why like, for me, I I don't follow a script I did have you know, I have my sheet now that we have video, there's a sheet next to me, and I don't think the camera catches but I do have a sheet. We went off script, I don't care. That's kind of like all my interviews are kinda like that. i We ended up talking about a lot more stuff than I scripted. And so that, you know, that means though, unfortunately, Jen, as we approach the end again, because I want to try to keep it to an hour. That means you're gonna have to come back again, set

Jenn Nakhai: 58:58

the date and time. You know, I

Steve Bisson: 59:00

will I promise that we, you know, the, the two episodes. The time I glanced at the time I went holy crap went fast. Number one, number two, you're so personable. You're so nice. I love our conversations. And a lot of stuff that I I probably will say off air, but I'll just say thank you. And that you can always count on me. I know I can count on you. So thank you for that. And looking forward to our next episode.

Jenn Nakhai: 59:35

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. And if anyone needs to contact me or has any questions, you can always reach me at get a unhealth@gmail.com That's GTAEON h e l p@gmail.com. Thank you, Steve for having me always and letting me talk about it.

Steve Bisson: 59:56

Well, there was a different type of intense on this one from the law This episode and the intensity was right there again. And thank you so much and Susan. Okay, well this concludes episode 48 of finding your way through therapy John neck I just the conversation I needed for so many reasons. Just because we haven't talked anything was only a few weeks, but it felt like a while, we had to catch up. And I really enjoyed how it really turned into all or nothing thought processes, how it's affecting people. We talked about race differences, and everything else that goes with that. So I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. And please let me know in the comments section. Episode 49 will be about dark humor. I wanted to talk about that for a long time and it gets just gets pushed back because of so many interviews. But I want to talk about dark humor. So I hope you come back to join us for that episode. Please like, subscribe or follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for information, educational, and entertainment purposes. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor or therapist for consultation.