E.91 How Your Attachment Style Can Lead To A Secure Relationship With Marc Sholes

In this episode, we talk with Marc Sholes, a therapist in New York City. He has 35+ years of experience helping people get healthy, tidy up their world, and straighten out their lives. He wrote a book called "Resetting Your Romantic GPS" which talks about attachment style and how it plays a factor in the partner you seek.

During the interview, we talk about a variety of topics on this subject, including how to change your attachment style, vulnerability in relationships, as well as how to find a safe relationship by avoiding the comparison game.   

You can buy his book by clicking here.

You can also find Marc on his website here.

You can also find his Instagram here. 

Transcript

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Steve Bisson: 0:02

Hi, and welcome to finding your way through therapy. I'm your host, Steve Bisson. The goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy, and the wide array of conversations you can have in therapy. I also talked to guests about therapy, their experience with therapy, and how psychology is present in many places in their lives. They also share personal stories. So please join me on this journey about there. Hi, and welcome to Episode 91, of finding your way through therapy. I am Stevie. So if you haven't listened to Episode 90, it's a little bit of me talking about my history, particularly working with the criminal slash community justice field. So hopefully you can go listen to that and know more about where I come from in regards to my work. But on Episode 91, we're going to talk to Mark Scholes Marshalls is a New York psychotherapist with 35 years of experience, helping people get healthy, tidy up their world and straighten up their lives. He is the author of the book, reset your romantic GPS, why you steer towards the wrong partners and how to change for the better, which is available at all bookstores and they will be attached in my show notes. So if you want to go and buy it, that'd be great. It talks about attachment styles psychological force we develop in early childhood and the influence of every emotional choice and decision we make. Mark. areas of expertise include couples therapy, marital challenges, anxiety, depression, employment difficulties, sexual dysfunction, and eating disorders. He's also a board member of the National Institute for psychotherapy. He's a leading training institute for psychotherapist and a former associate editor of psychoanalytic perspectives, a journal of integration and innovation, looking forward to our conversation, because attachment styles is something I really enjoy. So let's get to it. Hi, and welcome to Episode 91, to finding your way through therapy. I'm Steve D scientists also YouTube channel, Episode 25. I'm going to stop putting those episodes. I've been around long enough on YouTube at this point. But please go check it out. Sometimes it's nice to have the visual with it. But I have Mark shoals here today Mark is someone that was referred to me. And I started listening to his stuff online, whether it is his own website and everything else that he's done, like including podcasts, and I find it fascinating. So I'm happy to have him around. He has written a book he's going to I'm sure he's going to talk about it. And it's nice to have a fellow Northeastern are around. So welcome, Mark.

Mark Sholes: 2:39

Thank you, Steve, for having me really excited to be talking with you on your podcast, which I happen to think is terrific.

Steve Bisson: 2:47

Well, thank you so much. And I've listened to you to other podcasts. It's funny because I do pre interviews with pretty much everyone and what what I've came up with is I was like, I have so many questions based upon what I heard on other podcasts. So I can't wait to talk with Mark about that. But you know, Mark, I look you up obviously in research you we you obviously sent me some stuff, but maybe my audience doesn't know who you are. So maybe you can tell

Mark Sholes: 3:12

me about yourself? Yeah, I'm in Manhattan. I'm a psychotherapist and a psychoanalyst. And I've been practicing for what feels like ever, for about 35 years, I do a lot of couples work and a lot of individual work. I seek clients from college age all the way through, and of life stage. So I've been really sort of breathing, sleeping, and, you know, studying psychotherapy, for most of my adult life. I got into it really, because which precedes my adult life, I was born with a kind of empathic disposition. And my mom, who was a very interesting, charismatic, kind of volatile and mood shifting kind of person needed some counseling and see my father seemed to not want to take that role on. So I felt like sort of I've been counseling from very early on, which made me a good therapist, but as a human in relationships, it kind of made things more complicated for me as being a caretaker from very early on. So I've been doing it really I think since I bought since I'm born.

Steve Bisson: 4:28

Yeah, one of the things I tell people all the time, they asked me how long have you been doing this professionally? About 23 years if you count my family 47. So I relate to what you're saying. And the first thing that came to mind when you said 35 years Oh, my God, that's a long time to keep empathy for that long. It's, we can come back to it but it's like being empathetic for that stuff is like I see a lot of burnout going on right now with other therapists. Yeah. So you talked about it a little bit in regards to your family, but well What was your journey to get into the mental health field? How did you get here?

Mark Sholes: 5:04

I mean, I got here probably because I also started my own Being a patient around my sophomore year in college, being involved in a relationship that sort of took me for a ride, that I was, you know, obviously a co participant in, and just really kind of being lost in that kind of relationship. So I started therapy at about 19 and studied psychology in school. And it was really, I was just very much I was determined to, I knew that sort of, there was something that wasn't kosher with me, in terms of my relationships, I was really a caretaker, I was really privileging other people's needs. I really didn't know what my own needs were. And when I didn't know them, I was sort of ashamed to express them. I knew this was not right. And I was determined to switch things around. And I think my interest in the field and my helping people kind of do the same thing I was attempting to do for myself, all kind of came together and led me into the field. And I think continues.

Steve Bisson: 6:14

Yeah. And yeah, I think people I love the most having on this podcast, as people continue to educate themselves, way pastor educational, and so to speak. And that's what I get from a lot of what you're saying. Then relationships, such a key thing to discuss, right? Yeah, one of the things that come up for me is attachment style. Yeah. And so I know a lot of the attachment styles, obviously, but I'm not as well versed as you, nor will I pretend I am. But it would be nice if we can share with people listening a little bit more about the attachment styles, because that's going to come up with a whole lot of different questions, believe me, I have like 20 more questions, obviously, just based on the first few minutes.

Mark Sholes: 6:57

Yeah, and once you start looking into attachment style, you'll find it popping up, it's really become a more popular and kind of understood a theory and science. But basically, a, we're born with a we grow up in a in an early milieu, our parents, and our caretakers, and there's a kind of language that develops. And it's a language of attachment and connection. And there are two basic kinds of languages during those kinds of pre verbal, verbal years, which are kind of a secure attachment, and insecure attachment. And very quickly, it's kind of easy to understand how a secure attachment develops, it develops like this, the infant comes into the world with basic needs of hunger and need for touch, need for soothing need for self right, you know, for regulation, and a good enough caretaker responds to those needs, in consistent enough ways. And the child internalizes two things that are really crucial one, my needs are okay, and to the world will respond to them. And after 1000s of these relational moments, the child begins to internalize the sense of safety, the sense that I'm existing in a safe enough world, and my needs are going to pretty much get met. And I can tolerate things that don't get met, because I can kind of begin to think that they will eventually get met. And so that, that's security that the child then goes out into the world with is a real game changer. Because they can anticipate things aren't going to collapse. They can go through the obstacles of life, the difficulties of life, the complexities of relationships, and they can figure out what's good for them and what's not good for them. If something's not good for them, they can leave it. If they want to challenge themselves, they have a sense of, I can challenge myself. And if I fail, it doesn't mean I'm a loser, and unlovable. And that is the gift of a secure attachment. And on the flip side of that, an insecure attachment, of course, is the child comes in in the same way. But those needs are very seldomly met, or very inconsistently met, or the parents are so self absorbed, that they really are not even kind of responding to the child's needs. And so what happens is two kind of tragic things. One is the child's begins to experience their needs as there's something wrong with my needs. And two, they begin to pre be preoccupied with the other with the caretaker, because now the onus of the relationship and attachment is on the child. How do I connect to them? So how do I accommodate my itself to what they're comfortable with, in order to feel tethered in order to feel attached. And attached is the most important motivator for an infant we need to be connected connectivity is, is number one. And so there's a language that develops with an insecure attachment, which is, I'm connected through to you, through my own accommodating myself to you. And that's how one is in control of their attachment needs. And so the security instead of it being inside, now is outside. So think about going into the world where you don't have that internalized lifejacket. But that life jacket is residing in the other. And in order for you to feel stabilized, you need to be kind of consistently connected to that other whoever that other is your partner, your boss, your friends. And so security becomes really the most, the number one motivation, and the ability to really kind of choose for oneself or to, to kind of privilege their own sense of self. That's not a gift that the more insecurely attached person has. So that's sort of the languages, the styles,

Steve Bisson: 11:23

you know, it's interesting that a couple of things came to mind when I was listening to that. I do a lot of trauma work. And all I can think of is the fawn response that has been more and more reported in the trauma realm. And that's really that insecure attachment, I gotta meet other people's needs in order to be happy.

Mark Sholes: 11:42

Yeah, in order to feel even safe, in order to feel secure, happy, I think is already it's something that that rarely gets achieved, but, but the potential for happy exists in that.

Steve Bisson: 11:56

So I really came up with the fawn response when I was thinking about the trauma. So I appreciate you telling me that. The other thing too, that came up in my head listening to that is like the type of parenting styles that people would have authoritarian, authoritative or permissive. And I'm wondering if that plays of also a factor in regards to these attachment styles? Because this definitely seems to be related in my opinion.

Mark Sholes: 12:22

Yeah. Usually the terms of the parent themselves or parenting?

Steve Bisson: 12:26

Yeah, so if you have an authoritative parent, it's giving child and what I call what I tell about authoritative, I describe it as enough court to kind of like, hang yourself and not let you hang. But in to me, that's the best way to parent in in many ways, and that creates a secure attachment. If you're in trouble, we're going to go and help you. But if you're not in trouble, you want to explore you can. And I don't know if that plays a factor or not. And I wanted to hear your opinion as to how that probably plays a factor in the secure versus insecure attachment.

Mark Sholes: 12:57

Yeah, I mean, you know, firstly, firstly, you know, we, what's interesting is that grownups also have their attachment styles, right? So if a parent has, let's say, an avoidant attachment style, which means emotions and vulnerability is something that feels frightening to a person with a with an avoidant, you know, or a parent with an avoidant attachment style, the vulnerability in the child is something that's not going to be responded to well, it's going to be responded to in a way where the child should be, you know, let's make it all right, get out of that state. That's, you have to toughen it up, go out there and, and so the style of a parent is often going to very much affect the attunement to the child. And children come in with different constitutions also. So ultimately, any rigid, really rigid style of a parent is going to be not so attuned to the infant, right? And so that the more flexible, a grown up is in their ability to kind of notice their own emotional experiences, the more attuned they're going to be able to be to the infant. So there are certainly times where a more authoritarian parent will be the more attuned response. But there could also very well be a lot of moments where that's not where that's not the right response. Right. And again, we're talking about good enough, you know, good enough parenting. I mean, this is not no one bats 1000. But good enough, means consistent enough, responsive enough.

Steve Bisson: 14:42

Right. And I think that with today's information overload that we have as parents, I've always reminded people that good enough, you can hit 80% of the time, and that's pretty good. Oh, yeah. But it was a lot of perfectionism. Like, oh, you know, once I got upset and I yelled, yeah, welcome. to the club.

Mark Sholes: 15:01

Yeah, yeah. 100% 100%.

Steve Bisson: 15:04

And I think that that plays a factor also as you as a parent, and when you're developing your relationship with your child, and how you're going to have that attachment style, because then if you're beating yourself up, you're not paying attention to the child, and so on and so forth. Yeah. When I think about all that, too, is that, you know, some people will say, Well, if I grew up with having an insecure attachment, I'm stuck with that for the rest of my life. Right? And would you agree with that? Or do you think that things can change?

Mark Sholes: 15:32

No, I would, I would. 100% say things can change. But they can't change without self awareness. They can't change without learning about one style. And then making some choices that are different. And often uncomfortable. I like to say, you know, the, there's the discomfort of healthy choices, when you're in something that's not good for you. And there's a hope or a fantasy that if you could just get it right, then the person will love you. And you realize that that's not going to happen, the ability to leave, and to live with and mourn the feelings that come up that make you want to run right back. But the ability to kind of move in the opposite direction, and live with the feelings that one has to sort of feel in order to take care of the self.

Steve Bisson: 16:28

Something you're not used to sometimes when you've been insecure. So totally, I think I go back to therapy in general, I think that if you're not conscious of what is going wrong with you, and you don't have a willingness to change, which I think is a two fold approach in my in my work anyway. I wonder if that's what you're talking about? Because I think that we can talk about to where blue in the face of the other person like, nope, not changing? What can we do?

Mark Sholes: 16:54

Yeah, that's true. It takes awareness, and it takes the will to change. And, you know, if you've come up against that wall enough, hopefully, you know, you say, Okay, this is enough. It's kind of like even with with addiction, you have, you have to say this is it, you have to come to a kind of, you know, aha moment, where you say, All right, if I continue this, I am going to get the exact same outcome, I'm going to continue to respond to what might feel like this is a little like chemistry, in a relationship where chemistry is just kind of an old pattern being sort of ignited, and the hope that you can maybe find somebody who's not available to be available that that can be a chemistry moment, right? A lot of my clients, friends, when they're faced with a kind of a healthy relationship, somebody who is responsive and attuned and present, they will kind of often say, Well, I just don't feel that spark. And I'll say, Yeah, because that spark is something that you associate with a challenge, not necessarily a healthy attunement to two different beasts.

Steve Bisson: 18:17

100% I, it's funny, because I've had that too. This person is great, whatever, gender doesn't matter to me. I'm really bored. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, that's probably an attachment issue. Let's talk about that a little bit. Yeah. So I obviously bring it up a little bit in my work. But obviously, there's different types of insecure attachments, right? Yeah. Do you think that you treat them differently or not?

Mark Sholes: 18:45

Well, there are different types. And so for instance, like, I'm just looking. So in an ambivalent kind of attachment, there's a desire for closeness and a fear of rejection. Right. And with a more anxious or preoccupied attachment, is kind of a constant of need to seek reassurance, and a preoccupation of the other. And with a more avoidant attachment, this where you get more into kind of a one night stand kind of person, or somebody who criticizes their partner for always being needy, sort of someone who just owns their own needs, because their needs are so anxiety producing for them. So in all of these cases, the first step, again, is to learn about and to become aware that something is there's a, what my book is bound as the sort of GPS, right? So there's in us a kind of GPS in terms of being drawn to certain kinds of people. Right. And we are familiar with those kinds of attachment styles. So even if something is dis regulating is what home was like. And we all want to go home. I mean, for better for worse, until we that sense of knowing something, that safety, even if it's a dysregulated place is more safe for people, then a safe place a times that or a regulating place that is unfamiliar. Anyway, I don't know if I said that, right. But I know

Steve Bisson: 20:30

I get what you're saying I go back to the cycle of violence. People who stay with partners that are abusive in any way people say, Well, why did they say that's terrible? Well, it's because that's what they know. So it's better to know, than exactly, what's the expression I use? Is the devil, you go with the devil, you know, versus the devil, you don't know. Yes, exactly. So that's what I'm getting from what you're saying? Yes, that's

Mark Sholes: 20:53

exactly what I'm saying. And it's paradoxical. But it's, it really does make sense. And so when you become aware of what your pattern is, and then you want to bring consciousness into something, that is a reflex, and you want to, you want it to go from the sort of place of reflex, to the sphere of choice. And then you begin to have the choice to make different decisions. And that's where a lot of the work is. That kind of consciousness doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be like leaving a partner, or anything major, it can be as simple as exercising, for people with an insecure attachment, focusing on the self, making yourself a priority is not something that was really privileged. So a lot of people feel like that dread, to exercise Oh, no, I can't do it. I feel I'd rather just sit here and chill. Why do I have to be responsible for myself? Why can't somebody do something for me. And so when you make a healthy decision, and you bring those feelings with you, and you'd go to the gym anyway, you will have an experience after that is different than if you didn't go and you will have a more positive experience. And the same is same is true for food and cravings, becoming aware of our cravings, becoming, noticing the relationship we have to certain kinds of foods. And when we become aware of that relationship, if we want to we can make a choice to do something differently. When you start treating the self well. Something happens and the world starts beginning to treat you well. Well, I get it.

Steve Bisson: 22:46

I certainly am there having grown up somewhat of an avoidance style myself, I've changed a little bit as I go around. But the first thing that came to mind is I go back, I hope it's okay, if I jump from theory to theories. Yeah, I go back to Brene what I call the Debbie Ford method, and I remember her book, The Dark Side of light chasers. One of the exercises is to say things that you don't like about like, if you don't like something, and the word selfish comes to mind. For me. That's the one that was the hardest for me, because being selfish was not something with the attachment style that I have selfish did not jive. And so is that something that you kind of work on with people to teach them to be selfish? Because I certainly do that.

Mark Sholes: 23:31

Yes, I do. For people who are really over accommodators or trade to be selfish I I say to them, I mean, you have to appreciate this in context, but you need to increase your sadism man, you know, decrease your masochism? Yeah, and I don't mean literally to be saved as a sadist, obviously, but for a lot of people with an insecure attachment, there is a real fear of privileging the self. And asking is a real anticipation that they're going to not only be said no to but are going to be made to feel ashamed. And so certainly practicing, asserting oneself, knowing what one wants, what one needs and asking for it. It sounds like a simple thing, the ability to say no. Right? These are all foreign territory for some people. And to practice that kind of stuff is fantastic.

Steve Bisson: 24:28

And do you talk about some boundary issues? Do you talk about that stuff with people? Because I think that that's part of it too, right? Because I've seen many times people give, give and give, and then they feel like soon as the person is not receptive to their giving, then they're like, Oh, my God, they're gonna leave me.

Mark Sholes: 24:46

Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's one of the main core things we want to help somebody take the risk of, and, you know, if a person does leave them, because they've asked for something It doesn't usually happen. But there are people, when you change the contract with, they will leave, because they have an investment in that kind of relationship where you're giving, and they're receiving. And if somebody doesn't have the room to give back good riddance. I mean, it's not that simple. But it really is. Right. And the on the flip side of that, what people will find is that the world is not the same one that they were grew up in as infants, and that when they do make room for themselves, or try to make space for themselves, that people will have space for that. And the world will have space for that. And they won't have to, they often won't be abandoned. And so it's very important to try that out.

Steve Bisson: 25:53

Yeah, not being abandoned is kind of like the fear that comes up right away if you want to leave someone, right. Yes. And I think that what what I'm hearing also, is that, taking that risk, and I'm putting it in quotation marks here, because it's probably worth it. But how do we convince someone like I've had clients? And I'm sure you have to where you're like, Oh, my God, this is like the unhealthiest freakin relationship I've ever heard, how do we get them to move from that?

Mark Sholes: 26:22

Yeah, well, that's the work. And sometimes it takes a long time. And sometimes it takes for therapy, which is one of the one I mean, this is one of the things is what it often takes is a safe enough relationship and, and a deep enough therapeutic alliance, so that the client really feels connected to you, the therapist, and is willing to take that risk, and knows that they can come in with the feelings that emerge in them. That's a good sign.

Steve Bisson: 26:55

And I think it's hard for some people to feel connected to your therapist, and one of the conversations I've had in regards to attachment also, is that someone who has an anxious attachment, they'll bring that to therapy.

Mark Sholes: 27:09

Yeah, that's right. Look, you can learn to change your style without therapy with a lot of hard work. But for most people, if it's if it's kind of, you know, deeply ingrained, look, I've done it myself in therapy, I've done it as a therapist, therapy is very helpful. And of course, we bring our anxious attachment, and our issues of trust, and our issues of shame. And hopefully, a year with a therapist, who can notice those moments where you might be avoiding telling them something, or you may be pulling away, because you've just had like an intimate moment. And you now you know, don't show up the next week, because you know, whatever. And you're able to talk about that stuff and work through that in the therapy. And that becomes, you know, you have these new relational moments with a therapist. And those new relational moments give you an opportunity to have an experience that you've never had before, then you go out into the world, and you sort of experiment with them out there. Right. That's ideally sort of how, in my mind therapy works.

Steve Bisson: 28:16

I like to think and maybe you can tell me what you think. But I like to think that we mimic what a healthy relationship should be. And by sometimes that will take you know, someone six weeks, there'll be like, alright, I'll open up some people, yes, six months, and some people take six years. Correct. And I think that that depends on the attachment style. I don't know what you think about that. But I always tell people like being a sports fan. I work with a lot of males, we talk about sports, sometimes like, how is that therapy? I'm like, you don't have a clue how this is therapy? Yes. How do we also talk about that with people in the sense that they sometimes don't perceive it as building that relationship, so

Mark Sholes: 28:57

to speak? Well, I don't know. I would think that some of the like, what you're saying, where you're able to bond and talk about sports, that something intimate, it's happening and those conversations, and based on how those conversations go, that patient is trusting you understanding how your mind works, understanding where your empathy lies, and your humor is probably part of that. And I would imagine a patient experiencing that wouldn't question. I would think they would be having an experience with you that might be new. Right? And might feel like it's providing them with those kinds of things in an implicit way. If they if they question that. I might just tell them that I think what we're doing here has all the components of the very things that you're talking about, but maybe talking about them explicitly is more frightening. Then just experiencing them without putting words to it. So maybe what we need to do is to put words to it, and see how uncomfortable that might be for you.

Steve Bisson: 30:10

Yeah, bigger Montreal are born and raised. I'm been in the Boston area, Massachusetts area for over 23 years. And some of my clients when we talk about hockey game, what I tell them is that you develop empathy for the Montreal Canadiens. How screwed up is that? And they're like, oh, yeah, I didn't notice that. And it's kind of like that stuff that I talk about too. Like, how do you bring out that change in therapy, bringing up that, especially with the attachment stuff? How do we bring up change with the client in regards to that? Because we definitely have our I know, I'm still like about certain things in my therapy. I don't know how my therapist does it, but he brings down those barriers, good for him. But how do we bring up change in therapy? Because that's really difficult. I think that's the hardest part of doing our jobs.

Mark Sholes: 30:59

Yeah. That's a very good question. From my point of view, the change happens from working through these kinds of attachment styles with our patients. And noticing, when a person is retreating, noticing when somebody is shutting down, noticing a kind of emotion that may be in the body physically, and kind of opening it up and talking about it. And as people begin to take the risks of opening up, because remember, the fear is, if I focus on myself, and I open up, these parts of me were made to feel that they were worthless, and these parts of me did not make me feel connected to people. And so by opening this stuff up, I'm pretty sure it's going to ruin the relationship. And when they begin to understand that, in fact, it's not only not going to ruin the relationship, but inside of that person is the genuine person who has every right to exist, you know, and to flourish and to thrive. I mean, that's why this business is so after 35 years old, you can get burned out and this and that, but it's a privilege to be able to kind of you know, welcome parts of people and help hydrate those parts, and help integrate those parts. And then to see them go out into the world and ask for a raise or say no to someone who has been inconsistently getting back to them while they're dating and have that person who, by the way, who's inconsistently getting back be shocked that the person is saying no, right is a wonderful thing to watch. And change, you know, happens? It can happen quickly, or it can happen slowly. And but the one thing is for sure, with change comes morning. person has to mourn what what isn't. And they have to change their perspective also into inviting people who are caring and responsive and consistent. And that can be a challenge, believe it or not, because if you're not loved for yourself growing up, if somebody loves you, then something must be wrong with that person. Right, you gotta get through. I don't want to be part of a club that would have me for its member. That old thing?

Steve Bisson: 33:25

Yes, I remember that. It's who said that was Benjamin Franklin.

Mark Sholes: 33:31

I think it was Groucho Marx. Adventurer Ben Franklin before that.

Steve Bisson: 33:36

I always liked that expression, too, because it's true, right? If you want me. The other thing I talk about with my clients, and it's it's a sign of my waiting room, actually, that says it takes at least six months to feel sustainable change. I think that that's probably I can't remember why font where I found that stat, it was it's a real study. It's not like they did up. But I think that that's what I kind of remind people that like, they might make changes fairly quickly. But then it doesn't stick because they got some pushback. And so yeah, they might take six months before you're kind of like, oh, no, screw it. I'm gonna just stand up for myself. Yeah. Do you kind of like have that conversation with your clients in regards to like, change in how it may take time?

Mark Sholes: 34:20

Yes, I Yes. I mean, there are people who come into therapy thinking that they'd like change to happen within a week. And you know, you have to do some psychoeducation with people. That and change does take time. I mean, we're building new muscles. We're building new synapses in the brain. You know, a lot of stuff has atrophied and a lot of stuff has. They're these deeply ingrained patterns. That one just repeats and repeats over time. Getting out of those deeply ingrained patterns is its work and you have to respect that things take time and that new muscles need to be built, and you have to be consistent consistently work at it. It's funny about the six months thing because I also with with my patients who are dating, I also tell them, it takes six months to know who you're dating, you know, and you have to so you can feel all these ties in the first six months, but it takes about that time to, to see begin to see the character of the person that lies underneath a honeymoon period, or things like that.

Steve Bisson: 35:25

I think that that's exactly right, that we can what I tell people about dating in general is that I can make myself look good for an hour. It's not that hard. Exactly. Perfect. Doing it for six months straight. That's a pretty hard thing to do. So yeah, definitely hard. I mean, does your book talk a little bit about dating and all that stuff? Because that will be

Mark Sholes: 35:49

Yeah, interesting. Yeah. Yeah, reset your romantic GPS, why you steer towards the wrong partners, and how to change for the better is the name of the book. And it really was born out of my own desire to change my own attachment style. And it's a book really about becoming aware of our own attachment styles, it gives a lot of examples of different kinds of people, you know, in different kinds of patterns, you know, the one that the person who has to sort of conquer, and once they've conquered a person, or they've, you know, the person who loves them, then that person becomes less valuable. But while they're trying, they're just like, you know, the most amazing partner, once they get it, they then lose interest to people who, you know, are sort of just serial monogamists, ELLs, all sorts of different kinds of examples of kinds of styles. And some of the consequences of, of not changing, you know, the kind of tragedy of the thing about an insecurely attached person is that it has nothing to do with the person's essence. Like, it has nothing to do with their potential. It's that kind of language was really superimposed on a person very, very early. And so the need to find security on an ongoing basis that lies outside of yourself, can be so crippling, because there's no ability to delay instant gratification. For longer term satisfaction. There's no real ability to kind of figure out what would really be good for a person, they're just looking for security, right, and they never are able to really fulfill their potential, they often feel pretty shitty about that is the language that they haven't been able to achieve, like other people have achieved. All that kind of stuff. And the tragedy of that is it's got nothing to do with the essence of the person. And so if you can unlearn what was learned, you get to be your you get to have a life that lies outside of these constraints. And your experience of yourself changes dramatically. The more you can tolerate taking care of yourself, the more you can tolerate being good to yourself. I know that sounds ironic. And the more you like yourself, it's guaranteed that the world begins to hand you things that really show that the world likes you to once you get it, once you see that you don't want to let it down. You just naturally want that feeling. And it's terrific motivation.

Steve Bisson: 38:46

And that's why I think for me, personally, I take away when I talk to clients, I say, Let's not play the comparison game, because I can always find someone who's doing better than me. And I can always find someone who's doing worse. Oh, 100%. Yeah. And I tell people, if you're hitting the 70 to 80% range, you know, that's great. The stuff that I've always said about my therapy style, I'm like, I think I'm better than 70 to 80% of therapy, I have no problem being like call me arrogant, call me, whatever, I'm fine with that. That doesn't mean I can't improve. And that doesn't mean I'm the best. And I don't aim to be the best all the time, although I'll always look for improvement. So little bit in the relationship style that you talked about. That's also part of it. And one of the ways to address it, my experience is take away the instant gratification that you talked about. Yeah, and I think that that's what you how do we get people to shift that instant gratification because I think it's like, that's what's missing, right? I think that's what

Mark Sholes: 39:41

people do. Yes. If we can tolerate giving up the instant gratification, we're on our way and so look for me, I think of it just simply as going to the gym. So I think of the the treadmill as the treadmill, you Oh, I would rather not I get into moods where I just don't want to, I just want to chill and all this other stuff. And I know for the brain, forget about just working out for the body 30 minutes of a cardiovascular exercise for the brain is one of the best antidepressants you can take. It's as good as an SSRI. I mean, maybe not as good. But it works the same way. You get blood to your brain, right? And all the sudden for the next three or four hours or five hours, it feels significantly different. You also feel good about yourself, because you've done something that you've dreaded, but you've done it anyway, you've been responsible to yourself, that little lesson will go a long way. Because then you see it exists in other places, too. Where else can I do something that I know, I'd be foregoing instant gratification, to experience a kind of longer term satisfaction. And if you can begin to do those things, you go to sleep, take your phone, and put it on your your night shelf, one hour, before going to bed, don't look at it, pick up a book, let your brain rest for an hour, stop looking for something to fill you up at the end of the night that you didn't have during the day live with that feeling. You begin to be the master of your choices, you'll begin to feel good about yourself. And you'll also get a better night's sleep.

Steve Bisson: 41:36

I think it puts the bottom to the bottomless pit that we have.

Mark Sholes: 41:40

Exactly, it stops that bottomless pit by bringing choice into the picture.

Steve Bisson: 41:49

And I think that that's what most people have to understand is the choices.

Mark Sholes: 41:53

It's a lovely way. That's a lovely, that's a lovely idea.

Steve Bisson: 41:57

And I think it goes back to a little bit of what you said, you know, like you talked about your book being The attachment style, and it's also about your own exploration of yourself. And you saw the choices that you had, do you think that that's something that you most people need to realize in order to move forward or

Mark Sholes: 42:13

to say to you mean, to see that there are choices, I think that what

Steve Bisson: 42:16

a lot of people say is that I don't have a choice, I'm gonna talk for myself for a second, I'm 47, I better grab whoever comes around, because I'm 47. I'm on the other side. And I'm divorced and whatever. I don't believe that for the record. I'm just saying, for example, but once I saw that I had a choice, then I feel like I can respect where my attachment style is going to be more secure versus just be desperate about stuff.

Mark Sholes: 42:42

Okay, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Again, I think that part of that choice also is noticing also, is there someone who I'm saying no to who's actually who's actually very good for and being able to tell the difference between those two things. But yes, desperation really is. You want to have a relationship with desperation. You don't want to act on desperation. You want to talk to that desperation. You know, that desperation comes from some place, it's probably not from the here and now. The here and now things might, you know, you might want something you might not want something. But that feeling of desperation comes from a child's experience, that the world is hinging on your connection or disconnection from a parent, it's almost a life and death feeling. And so if you can talk to your desperation, right, and say, hey, you know, what do you need right now? Well, and then you sort of put your arm around that part of you, you talk to that part of you show him around, show him your studio. Look, we got a studio, look what else we got, we got this great podcast, that part begins to feel safer, right.

Steve Bisson: 44:04

And I think that that's what it comes down to in regards to relationships, is being feeling safe is key to a whole lot of people. And I think that, tell me more about someone's going to pick up your book, I'm going to link it to my show notes. Obviously, they pick up their book, where they're going to get when they pick up your book.

Mark Sholes: 44:23

They're going to be introduced to the idea of attachment styles. They're going to begin to kind of see examples of what it's like to try to as you change your style, what it's like if you don't, how we compensate for you know how compensation comes into to the package, and also different kinds of suggestions and techniques to begin to create that kind of consciousness that it takes around exercise and sleep and food. And meditation, by the way, five minutes of mindful meditation is one of the most important things we can do. And it's one of the most important things we can do. Because it's five minutes of being with ourselves of noticing when our minds have wandered and coming back to ourselves. And this idea of there's a self to come back to, for a lot of people, believe it or not, is an aha moment.

Steve Bisson: 45:29

Right? I go back to mind body spirit that you talked about earlier, I think that it's important to be able to have all three and again, you know, I believe in spirituality personally, in my, my, my practice of mindfulness, or meditation, or whatever people want to call it, taking those five minutes before bed, you talked about, you know, putting your phone away. Well, for me, it's been my sleep hygiene, it's part of my sleep hygiene, including some sort of like five minutes on a cushion. That doesn't mean I'm not my mind's not wandering, I kind of remind people like, if your mind is not wandering, you should worry a little bit about that, too. But it's realizing that you can do that it makes a better relationship with yourself. And that's, I'm happy that that's what your book is gonna do. Yeah, thanks. So

Mark Sholes: 46:16

where can we get your book. So you can go to Amazon, and if you look up, mark shows or, you know, reset your romantic GPS, it pops up. And I have an Instagram mark shows LCSW, which is Instagram, and I have a website, which is, mark shows lcsw.com. And I'm happy to if people ever want to reach out, help them, you know, give them information on books, or how to learn more about attachment style, or how to find a good therapist, all that kind of thing.

Steve Bisson: 46:52

And you're based out of Manhattan, right? I am in Manhattan. Yeah. And you know, we didn't even get into this Yankees Red Sox stuff. Right? As we approach the hour already, because this went really fast. Yeah, the one thing that was very interesting to me is that at one point, you were an associate, an associated director of editor, sorry, of psychoanalytic perspectives. Can you tell me a little more about that?

Mark Sholes: 47:20

Yeah, psychoanalytic perspectives is a journal, a psycho and Adelaide journal that, like a non Orthodox, you know, a more kind of contemporary psychoanalytic journal, it's part of an institute called the National Institute for the psycho therapies, that is a Training Institute in New York, and we train. So therapists and psychologists come to us and they go through a four year program. And really what they do is they learn to be deeper thinkers and just kind of learn more about how to be the best therapists they can be. And that's really what a sort of psychoanalytic Institute does. And that's been a great experience, you know, training, training therapists and, and, you know, COVID, as awful as it was, one of the things that did, which is great is that it pushed mental health to the foreground. And boy, boy, you know, are people more open to seeking out and reaching out for help? And that's been, you know, the silver lining, one of the silver linings, at least in our business,

Steve Bisson: 48:26

and I liked that is that the Institute is not the Orthodox you know, what people perceive as therapy, like, you lie on the couch and you start in interpreting dreams are a cigar represents a certain thing, and a lake represents another thing, and I'm not going to I'm not going into stereotypes, but I kind of tell people,

Mark Sholes: 48:45

no, you're 100%, right? No, it's therapy is a bi directional, you know, experience where people develop a relationship, and are able to open up and talk and, and feel seen and feel heard and diminish shame, build self esteem. And all the while, hopefully, the therapist is also changing from them a little bit, and, you know, deepening their own empathy and appreciating the patient's own subjectivity.

Steve Bisson: 49:19

I'm a big fan of psychoanalytic stuff, I used to be several, very much oppose, and I catch myself as I grow in my practice, and I know it's been 20 something years, but I use a lot more of those. We call them theories, because they're very solid. And you know, I become a big Yan Fang personally is and I love I love that stuff. So why did the share but Mark, I can't tell you how much this was helpful. I hope people go buy your book, because I'm going to definitely link that up. And attachment styles to me means the world because that is absolutely what we replicate as we get older. So so thank you for your time. Oh, thank

Mark Sholes: 50:01

you so much, Steve.

Steve Bisson: 50:05

Well, that concludes episode 91 of finding your way through therapy. Mark Schultz, thank you so much was a great conversation in regards to attachment styles and everything else that goes with that. So episode 92 will be a review of season seven. I can't believe we're already gotten to the end of season seven. So I hope you join me then. Please like, subscribe or follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for information, educational, and entertainment purposes. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor or therapist for consultation.