Trust Is Earned Before Therapy Can Work

You can build the best peer support team on paper, fund the best wellness initiatives, and still miss the people who are hurting the most. That’s where this conversation with Dr. Stacey Raymond goes, and we don’t stay polite about it. We talk about why first responder mental health needs to start at the academy level, with a clear warning: the job will expose you to traumatic events, and it will change your sleep, your relationships, and how you see the world. 

We also get specific about a topic that frustrates a lot of officers and clinicians alike: what “vetted therapist” should actually mean. If you’re a clinician who wants to work with police, fire, EMS, or dispatch, cultural competence isn’t a buzzword. It’s ride-alongs, learning how calls really flow, understanding why police often don’t get to process between calls, and recognizing how trust is earned minute by minute. Along the way we highlight the hidden load carried by 911 dispatchers, including relentless exposure to crisis audio, limited movement, and little closure due to HIPAA. 

Then we zoom out to leadership and risk. Chiefs and supervisors often want certainty about who is “safe,” but human behavior is dynamic and can shift fast with substances, gambling addiction, and life stress. Dr. Raymond shares research using the ACEs questionnaire and adult attachment patterns, showing how certain adverse childhood experiences correlate with avoidant, mistrustful coping, meaning some officers will bypass peer support and refuse therapy even when they know they’re struggling. 

If you care about police wellness, first responder resilience, EMDR-informed trauma treatment, and building a culture where getting help doesn’t feel dangerous, hit play. Subscribe, share this with someone in public safety, and leave a review so more people can find the conversation.

To reach Stacy, please go to her website: https://www.drstacyraymond.com/

Her Instagram is https://www.instagram.com/stacyshrink1414/

You can buy her book here

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Transcript

Welcome And The Big Focus

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Resilience Development in Action with Steve Bisson. This is the podcast dedicated to first responder mental health, helping police, fire, EMS, dispatchers, and paramedics create better growth environments for themselves and their teams. Let's get started.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

And just like magic, we're dressed the same exact way, but it's a week later. I don't know. It's a week later. Wow. Welcome again to Resilience Development in Action to Dr. Stacey Raymond. We talked about EMDR the last episode, but I want to focus on something that's meant a lot to me too. And I see that it means a lot to you too. So that's why I'm excited about this, too. You we're going to talk about your book, Helping the Helpers, particularly. I think that's very helpful for therapists to look at.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

I should probably show it, right? There it is, Helping the Helpers. And it's co-authored with David Dashinger. He's a retired fire lieutenant. And there's Bonnie Rummely. And she has been an EMT since the age of 17. So she did it for most of her life, but she's a clinical social worker now. So the three of us put this together based on the what we called the master class series, where we interviewed clinicians working with various branches of public safety. And we have a podcast as well called Responder Resilience.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Well, I'd love to be on there too, but I was going to joke around. So she drove the ambulance. That's great. Um, just tell

Academy Training For Real Trauma

SPEAKER_02 1:35

her to write to me, we'll figure it out. You know, I'm joking. But no, I think that that's exactly where my passion is also about. Like I love working my first responder people, but I think it's important to understand that for me, I really think that we need to start at the academy level. And when they come in, you know, when you train a paramedic EMT, police, law enforcement official of any kind, I think that starting about, you know, I think that now in Massachusetts, we do a whole 24 to 40 hours, depending on which academy, to talk about mental health. On a six-month level, that's a drop in the bucket at best for someone that you're gonna deal with pretty much daily. But how do we what can we do to get people trained on this? Because I think to me it's so important to get to that point.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Well, in the academy, we need to, you know, just cut to the chase and say, look, you're signing up for a career that is gonna expose you to very traumatic events and it's gonna bring up emotions for you. And then we can list, you know, the heavy hitters. You know, if you attend a child death, that's probably one of the worst. There's gonna be obviously there's gonna be homicides, there's gonna be suicides, there are gonna be gruesome automobile accidents, you know, you're gonna walk in, there's gonna be domestic situations where someone is really beat up, and clearly there's a bad dynamic here that's been ongoing. So, you know, they have to be aware that they're gonna be exposed to that and that it's not even a matter of like if you're gonna need help or you're gonna need therapy, but when you're gonna need help or you're gonna need therapy. And, you know, to definitely become familiar with your peer support team once you get to your agency, you know, after you go through, you know, your initial training and whatnot, ask about it if they haven't even, if they haven't, you know, introduced the concept to you that there's a peer support team. But every department should also have like a list of vetted therapists. And so that's one reason why we wrote this book, Helping the Helpers, is, you know, to train more people to this looks kind of fuzzy. Let me do this. Helping the helpers. The clinician's guide to first responder mental wellness, okay? You know, what it takes to become a clinician that works with these populations. And so you can't just be a regular therapist and think that you're gonna sit down, sit across from a police officer and be able to earn their trust. That is your first hurdle right there. They can see through you. They know if you're bullshitting or pretending that you know what they're talking about. They're gonna just see right through that, and that'll be your last session. So we wrote this book because we felt that it was like a major gaping hole in clinicians' guides. And there definitely needs to be something like this. So we're very proud that it came out last year. It is a reflection of a compilation of many of our podcast interviews that we did, and I think it came out really good. So, first and foremost, we need more clinicians that are trained to work with these populations. Yes, it should start in the academy of just giving people the heads up that you are gonna be exposed to stuff that's gonna rock your world and you're gonna lay awake at night some nights. It's just gonna happen. And so if you think that because you're young and it's it's it's like the guys with 15, 20 years, that those are the ones that have been worn down and their bucket is full. No, because you're gonna see things for the first time. And before you get used to like what it's like to go to a car accident, you're gonna have to have your first gruesome car accident. And that's probably gonna sear itself on your mind. And so, you know, realizing that that's gonna take a toll like on you, on your sleep, also on your relationships. It's gonna affect how you relate to your significant others. If you end up having children, it's gonna, you know, you're gonna be super concerned about bad things happening to your kids. You know, paramedics, you know, you know, really are on top of their kids to wear the helmet and whatnot. Now you're the your kid is feeling like he's the only one that has to wear the helmet in the neighborhood because my my father and my mother is a damn paramedic. You know, this is gonna affect all your relationships.

What Vetted Therapy Actually Means

SPEAKER_02 5:56

So well, you know, you said so many good points. I was writing them all down as fast as I can because I loved your points. The the the thing that I that I appreciate the most is yeah, we need more vetted therapists to do the job. I'm gonna throw out something that's happened to me recently about a vetted therapist, and I mean I say that in very light mood, and if that person recognizes themselves, I didn't share your name. They told me that they were an expert because their uncle was in a firefighter. Oh said, Oh, how often did you see your uncle? Oh, I'd see him, you know, major holidays. I don't know how that vets you to be a first responder. And that person was extremely, extremely, extremely upset about my upset about your judgment, but there's a lot of truth to that, Steve.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

And not only did was I raised by a Marine and a police officer, I was told by now a very good friend of mine, deputy chief, retired from a local fire department. He's like, You got to go to Citizen Police Academy. Their department is having a citizen police academy. It's 17 weeks, and they're gonna go through everything that police have to learn. And it's at your level, right? We even did firearms, we were, you know, we we were on the range, like we, you know, we we learned about SWAT, we learned about law, and just it was eye-opening, right? So, and then when I was invited to become clinical supervisor of that department's peer support team, I wrote with every member of that peer support team, even in midnight because there was somebody who was on MIDS, and there was somebody who was a detective. So I spent a couple of hours with that detective up in the in the DB, and I he showed me a redacted warrant. Many, many, many pages. You think, oh yeah, you just get a warrant. No, that detective has to work on that for hours, sometimes days, in order for it to be worded so that the judge says, Yes, you can serve it.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

So that goes through the hands of the DA, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

And you know, it's just policing is so much more than what you as a civilian or what I as a civilian, even as a daughter of a cop, ever realized. So ride-alongs, do ride-alongs, ask questions. And then I did the same thing for fire. So that deputy chief had me ride with him, you know, being first on scene to fires, you know, in his vehicle. And then the engines show up and he stages them, he tells them what to do. I mean, I learned so much. I I had dinner with the firefighters, you know, and I listened to their conversation, which was very interesting. And, you know, you just you end up seeing the difference between fire culture and police culture, and how, you know, they get to hang out with each other and talk about bad calls in the fire department. But in the police department, they go, they go from suicide, and now they've got, you know, complaint because a, you know, a neighbor says that the neighbor's dog is pooping in their yard, right? And so, you know, going from one horrible thing to something that just seems so petty and having to switch gears, right? And and and watching a police officer go through that and they ride alone in in the town that I or the city that I was going. They ride alone. And so they go from one shitty call and then they're alone and they're going to this, what seems to be why are you so upset over this? When I just came from, you know, a woman who just her husband came home and her found her husband had killed himself, you know, and having to make that mental adjustment, right? And so even EMS, there's someone is driving the ambulance and the other person is in the back with the patient, right? And then after the call, as they're restocking the ambulance, perhaps cleaning out if there were any bodily fluids, they can talk about that call, right? And there's there's a beginning of a processing. Police are in a whole different, it's a whole different uh way of them having to deal with with trauma.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

I think that that's exactly what I was gonna share because exactly being alone is a whole different ball game than you know, in Massachusetts, you end up with at least a team of three or four when one officer and you know, paramedic or EMT or firefighter or some combo of four. And that's makes a huge difference because you can process.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Sometimes you don't have time to process because you're not in the city that I that I help. They're they're on to the next call, they don't have time to stand around and process it.

SPEAKER_02 10:23

But even with ambulances, you might have a few in a row, but you still have the same experience, so you can talk about it. Correct.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

As you're driving, you could talk process the last call, or as you're cleaning, because at some point you have to restock the ambulance and clean it out because it has to be HIPAA compliant,

Dispatchers Carry Trauma Without Closure

SPEAKER_01 10:40

right?

SPEAKER_02 10:40

And I think that that's what I mean is that police go from one call to another. And the one thing I will never forget, and this is because of my experience also doing the therapy with them. Do not forget about your civilian dispatch or even your sworn-in dispatch. They go from one call to another, and again, I uh I I go, I think about that Chicago call. I've talked about it on the podcast before, about knowing that you got your officers on side on scene, sorry, and you hear and then the phone clicks off, and then five seconds later, 911, what's your emergency? And you need to do that as a dispatcher. You don't have time to go, you know what? I'm gonna go process that outside of here. So I tell people, like the dispatchers, which civilian or not, in Massachusetts, there's a little mix, mostly, mostly civilian. Okay, your dispatchers typically also grow through hell.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Oh, absolutely. You know, they they don't have closure necessarily because of HIPAA, right? They may want to know how did that uh baby choking at four, you know, four-month SIDS baby, like how did that go? You know, because it oftentimes they have families themselves and and they may not ever find out what what happened, what was the outcome. The other thing is they're sitting, right? And so they can't move around much. They might be able to get up and go to the bathroom and the other dispatcher can cover the phone, but you know, all of that is going into their headphones, right? And then it's it's like rippling through their body and they're sitting. And one one thing that is a fact is that the rate of of obesity among among dispatchers is is very high. I think a lot of them will eat in order to self-soothe because they can't move around and get that energy out, you know.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

It's not like you can go for a jog afterwards, no, you know, or even between calls.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

You're you're already like jacked up from one call, and now it's it's stirring inside your body, and now you have to answer the 911 call uh phone again. And then there's a lot of stupid calls, right? And like the dog, yeah, the dog is Canadian geese have pooped all over my lawn. I want someone to do something about it. Well, guess what? That's not a 911 call, but the the dispatchers have to deal with that, you know?

SPEAKER_02 12:56

Yeah, stupid Canadians. Don't worry, I'm Canadian, I can say that. But I think the other part too is realizing that when you talk about the

Leadership Doubt And Wellness Culture

SPEAKER_02 13:05

changes that needs to be done, not only training in the front end, I think that the one that people, and I you know, I'm sure you talk about it also in helping the helpers. I really feel that we need to get the people who are in the leadership mo role to start thinking about it. Because, you know, some of the guys would go, like, oh, I survived 20 years, why can't this guy take it? Because he's different. Well, why can't she take it? She's a woman. No, it has nothing to do with being a woman or man. Some people have different responses.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

How about this? How about the number of officers that retire early or that end up with uh really bad alcohol problems and or take their own lives? Isn't that enough to kind of justify that perhaps we should we need we need to have admin supporting wellness initiatives? Hello?

SPEAKER_02 13:54

And I think that that's why I say getting the chiefs and the leadership to buy into the process. Absolutely is it's so important, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:00

You can't have officers afraid of using your resources because they're afraid that they're gonna be judged or deemed deficient or a liability.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

And I think it goes back to a little bit of what you talked about, vetted therapists and people being, you know, able to handle that. And what I mean by that is I've had a few people, I'm not a doctor like you, Stacy, but sometimes people are like, you know, can you just check on this guy? Is he gonna be okay? And most of the time I can make a judgment call. Obviously, if they need a psychiatrist or psychologist, more than happy to do that. But I've had many, like at least two chiefs call me, like, are you sure? I'm like, Well, okay, why do you ask that? They're like, Well, I don't know. And I'm like, okay, so let me explain to you something from a civilian perspective. If I thought this guy was dangerous in the community or this gal, understand that I live in the community, I have kids in the community, I have friends in the community. Do you think for one iota of a second I'd fucking put their lives in danger with some guy or some gal I don't think that should get back in? Wake the fuck up, Chief. Yeah, there's also this doubt that comes from sometimes leadership because not all leadership, I get that, but there's a doubt that comes like, Well, are you sure? Well, then don't fucking send them to me. And why are you asking me that? Maybe you have your doubts. That's great. I cleared them. You decide what you fucking do with that.

Sponsor Break Deemed Fit

SPEAKER_02 15:22

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Predicting Behavior Addiction And Risk

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Right. But it we're talking about human behavior too. We don't have a crystal ball.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

You don't?

SPEAKER_01 16:28

You know, we have we have our list of like things that we can check off with regard to suicidality or homicidality, but something could happen between now and when they go home that sets them off. And now they they want to follow through with killing themselves or they want to go and punch, you know, the guy who's sleeping with their wife out.

unknown 16:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

You know, like I can't control everything that they're going to come across between, you know, now and the next session that I have with them. I can say, call me if something comes up. I want to know about it before you do anything rash, right? But I can't control that person.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

And I think that I also talk about situational stuff. And what I mean by that is this I worked parole for many years, and I used to do uh for in Massachusetts, Murder 2 is no intent to kill originally, but you did kill someone, yeah, type of thing. It's not quite manslaughter, but kind of. And I would work with those guys, and one of the things I would always explain to some people, like, aren't you scared? Because I'm a therapist, I should be scared, right? And I'm like, No, like, why not? I said, because if you hear the circumstances, you understand that based on circumstances, a sometimes you know, what happens happens, and we can't judge what's going to happen in 10 minutes, never mind two hours, three hours. Right. You know, you go home and you're happy and life is good, and then you cat you catch your wife with you know that's getting beaten up severely by some other man, you pick up or woman, it could be a woman, and then you beat the living crap out of them to the point where they stop breathing. Yes, are you responsible for what you did? Well, you kind of did it out of passion, but yeah, you did kill someone, but they're not dangerous, they were circumstantial. And what I when I used to write these reports for parole and probation, I would always write as of right now, we're doing the interview at 1202 today, client is safe. Correct, and then after that, people would be like, But I can't predict the future. If my wand's upstairs, it's not down here. I can't get my wand right now. But if you can predict human behavior 15 minutes down the road, you're a better human being.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

And I understand chiefs want to know is this is this officer safe? But like as of yeah, 1203 now, uh, you know, in this conversation, he's you know, he checks all the boxes for safety.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

And I think that that's what the other part, too, with some of the therapists. I feel sometimes it's explaining to them that you're talking about moment to moment.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

And sometimes some therapists are like, no, they were stable last week. Like I was stable five minutes ago, I might be unstable now. It doesn't mean anything, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Right. And especially if there's substances involved because that can change on a dime.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

I think that we underestimate how much gambling, sex addiction is playing a huge factor ever since they made DraftKings, and I'm not picking on DraftKings. Absolutely, right DraftKings like, including FanDuel, and I'm not gonna go through all the companies. There's something about it, like I I shared this story before on here, but it's worth saying when the person is betting on soccer at 9 a.m. because that's when they start in England, and then they're betting on ping pong from South Korea at three o'clock in the morning, and this is a very true story. Yes, that's another $2,500 in that time. Yeah, behavior will change, and that's not that's not something I can predict.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Correct, correct. And interestingly enough, we just lost a well, he he resigned as chief from a a city department in Connecticut because it was found that he used over $80,000 worth of the department's money to pay off his gambling debt. So he once that was discovered, he stepped down and they needed a new chief. So it is a problem. And it's not just line officers, it's we're talking chiefs here. So it's a big deal. So can I talk, Steve, a little bit about you know, the the second part of this book, Dump the Bucket. One is we've we've already covered it in the previous interview about how EMDR is like the most effective tool to use with with police. But the other agenda is that I've always known Wait a minute.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

Before you go on, you ask me permission, I'm saying no. What are we gonna no? I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Look, we could talk about uh the Strait of Home News if you want.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

Oh no, hell no, I'm not talking about it.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

All right, all right. There's any number of topics that we could talk about, but I just figured I'd

ACEs And Why Some Avoid Help

SPEAKER_01 21:00

put in the joke anyway. Yeah, that's fine. No, I I'll roll with that. But I got concerned because you know, we have all this money going into wellness initiatives, right? Making sure you have a peer support team, making sure that you have education for all officers, line officers, all the way up supervisors, even command staff, about wellness, right? And the importance of wellness. And what do we mean by wellness? And there's a lot of money, there's a lot going into that right now. But I have always kind of suspected that there is a subset of police that will not use it. Okay. And that is what my research showed, right? So there are particular items on the ACES questionnaire, adverse childhood experiences questionnaire. There's only 10 items, but there were three that were significant that loaded onto avoidant tendencies and mistrustful tendencies. So you could have a stellar peer support. Team that people are raving about. You could have command staff that is cheering for wellness, right? Come on, folks, we've got all these wellness programs. We want you to take, we've got a, you know, we've got a list of therapists that have been vetted, and we have chaplains, and we have couples therapists, and we have financial counselors, and it's all on the website. Just, you know, it's there. You can go and look at it anonymously, and you can pick a therapist or you could talk to peer support, and they're not going to come and report to us. So use it, right? And then there's going to be that subset, and and there's a direct correlation that my, you know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, right? Because you have to use a statistical analysis, regression analysis, in order to say this is not due to chance. All right. So of the 177 officers that I gave a survey to, and they they answered the ACES questionnaire and they filled out a adult attachment scale. There are three items on the on the ACES questionnaire where if they answered it yes, they were most likely going to say, I I have problems, but I am not, I'm going to deal with them by myself. And that proved what I had suspected. And those are the ones that have a bucket half full already coming into policing. And if they went into the military and they were in in combat, now it's two-thirds full. And now they're going to do police work. All right. So that bucket is going to overflow pretty early compared to somebody who had a splendid childhood. So the items that are most significant are as follows. And it doesn't mean if you said yes to this that that's it, you're screwed and you're never going to go for help. I'm just showing a correlation. There was a tendency. If you said yes to this, you're probably going to bypass peer support. And hell no, you're not going to see a therapist, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:07

Can I we're just going to clear up for the audience in case they know they don't know. Correlation does not equate causation, but in the majority of the cases, it can be linked. So there's a huge difference. When I mean correlation is that these two things are linked, this is what we think it is, but there is no guarantee that's it. So sorry to for the the That's fine.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

And that needs to say that.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

The researcher and me that went to a research school needs to say that.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that, because that's true. So with that caveat, did you feel that no one in your family loved you or thought you were important or special? Mark, yes, if your family didn't look out for each other, feel close to each other, or support each other. So that one has the most correlation with being mistrustful and not wanting to get help, like pushing other people, saying, Yeah, that's good for other people, but but I don't need that. And what that says is if you didn't feel like your parents were there or your guardians were there for you to support you, it is very unlikely that you're gonna look at your peer support team or some unknown therapist that, yes, has been vetted perhaps by your department, but you don't know this person. So if your own parents let you down, you're just automatically assuming that the chaplain and the and the therapist, counselor, whoever, they're also gonna let you down.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

Everyone.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

So here's another one. This so not as strong, but very strong. Did a parent or adult in your home ever physically hurt you, resulting in bruises or cuts on your skin? Right? That would be physical abuse. All right. And then the other one that is also correlated with mistrust and not going to a therapist, but not as strong as the one I just read or the first one. Did a parent or adult in your home ever swear at you, insult you, or put you down? If you answer yes to that. So that's the that was that's the trifecta. Right. And a lot there were a number of officers of the 177 that answered all three yes. It is very unlikely that those officers are going to seek help. And I'm worried about those officers. I have not proven, and my research is not going to go down that avenue of are those the ones that take their lives because, you know, or drink themselves to death or, you know, retire early or whatever. I don't know, but I would suspect that they probably are the ones. Because if you look at the suicide research, the number one cause, or the again, not cause, but what has been endorsed in psychological autopsies. And this is usually the family and the friends answering yes, yes, he or she reported that. Interpersonal difficulties, you know, so they're really not getting along with their significant other, right? And so somebody who comes from a childhood where they didn't feel cared for by their by their parents or guardians, they're likely going to have a difficult time relating to their significant other, right? And if there was physical abuse and and verbal abuse, well, people are not your go-to when you're having a hard time. Alcohol's probably your go-to, prescription medication, maybe working out, not you know, sleep is gonna be an issue. And also these people had had they uh endorsed one true and false item that says, I have trouble calming down once I get angry.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

Right. I remember that that area, and it's so important to talk about those things because you're not gonna trust a human being, and there's a reason for that. And the whether again, the vetting stuff about therapists telling a first responder of any kind, to me anyway, say don't worry, trust me, is a great way to be distrusted for the rest of the session.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

It's earned, trust is earned. The and these individuals tend to be closer to animals, like they'll have a beloved dog that they go home to and they cuddle with and they feel closer to the dog than they do their significant other or or their kids.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

Well, as we come up on time, Stacey, this one I really fast really enjoyed our conversation.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

You still gotta set up karaoke.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

So yeah, I'm not I'm I'm going. You tell me where it is, we'll figure it out. We'll meet her in Rhode Island. That way we're on neutral side.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

In Rhode Island. All right, we can meet in Rhode Island. I mean, I'll meet, I'll introduce you to my dad, and then you'll you'll have compassion for me.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

I have uh an off interview story about that for you, not about your dad. I don't know your dad. Oh, okay, yeah, yeah. Something else that's similar to what you just talked about, which

Books Podcast Links And Closing

SPEAKER_02 28:50

um I think you'll relate to. But how about my audience wants to relate to you? So, where do we find you know, dump the bucket? Where do we find helping the help?

SPEAKER_01 28:59

Both books, both books are on Amazon. Yeah, easy to find them. My website is dr stacyraymond.com. I'm on LinkedIn, just type my name in. I come up. I'm on I'm on Instagram too and Facebook, but I don't I don't do a whole lot with those, but I'm on. I'm trying to be, you know, up to date socially, you know.

SPEAKER_02 29:21

But yeah, I try to do the same, but yeah, I'm trying. But no, I think that you know, this is my for my audience. I didn't read the helping the helpers, but I'm assuming I'm gonna get the signature from you.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Um you want that, I could send it your way.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

This um yeah, I I and if the ambulance driver's that's worth reading, you know. I I want to read it because this is a great idea to help the helpers.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Yeah, we need more therapists like you and me to help the these people that are you know in the line of fire, you know. They're they're risking their lives helping civilians, and there aren't enough therapists that know how to sit with them.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

You forgot one thing to mention. Watch the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

The podcast is uh responder resilience. And so you can find all of our episodes at respondertv.com.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

All right. So I wanted people to go to that. We're gonna do karaoke in Rhode Island. For my audience, thank you. I hope you enjoyed this because I do did enjoy it. I hope uh you go see get uh you know Stacy's book on Amazon. And otherwise, I look forward to seeing all of you at the next episode.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

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