How Police And Clinicians Team Up To Solve Root Causes

The calls that keep coming back aren’t always “police problems” they’re often people problems that never got solved. I’m joined by Amanda Rizzoli, clinical program coordinator with Milford Police Department in Massachusetts’ Family Services Unit and Community Impact, plus Detective Cody Carneiro, to pull back the curtain on what a Family Services Unit actually does day to day and why it can change outcomes for families and first responders alike.

We talk about the “merry-go-round” every officer knows: the same address, the same conflict, the same crisis, and the same short-term fix. Amanda and Cody explain how the unit focuses on root-cause work across mental health, substance use, domestic violence, runaway youth, and family instability. That means connecting people to the right behavioral health care, outpatient therapy, case management, housing applications, shelter options, and ongoing follow-up so a single incident doesn’t turn into a pattern.

We also get into the bigger picture of community-based policing and co-response models: how school-based relationships help kids feel safe reaching out, how clinicians and officers support each other on tough scenes, and how partnerships like Community Impact and Chris’s Corner create real options when a town is trying to help someone who is homeless or stuck in a revolving door of crisis calls.

Then we go where it matters most: first responder mental health stigma. We talk candidly about the fear of being seen as weak, the worry about fit-for-duty judgments, and why leadership support can make or break whether people get help. If you’ve ever wondered what actually works to move a “ten years on” veteran toward support, we share the simplest answer: start with a real conversation and make mental health a normal checkup, not a career risk.

Transcript

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Welcome, Mission, And Guests

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Resilience Development in Action with Steve Bisson. This is the podcast dedicated to first responder mental health, helping police, fire, EMS, dispatchers, and paramedics create better growth environments for themselves and their teams. Let's get started.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Well, hi everyone, and welcome to Resilience Development in Action. I'm so happy to be back in studio on Milford TV. It's been a while, but we're here with two great guests. One of them you'll recognize because you've seen her before here. Amanda Rizzoli has been here before. She's part of Behind the Badge and Beyond with me, but also more importantly, she can introduce other stuff that she does. That's why she's here. And Cody Canaro, like a Canari, but not a Camaro, uh, is also here. He's with also Milford PD, and uh we'll be talking a little bit about himself. So, guys, welcome to Resilience Development in Action. Thanks for having us. How about we start with you, Amanda? It'll be quick because they already met met you a couple of times already. So want to introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_03 1:08

So, Amanda Rosoli, as some of you may know, I am the clinical program coordinator with the Milford Police Department Family Services Unit and Community Impact. We partner together with Behind the Badge and Beyond, and I also do outpatient therapy at Community Impact.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

And welcome back and always fun to talk to. And there's no one who keeps me more in line than you, so thank you. Thanks for having me back. Cody, how about you introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_01 1:31

My name's Cody Canaro. I'm a detective here in Milford. I work in the family services unit with Amanda. Prior to that, I was one of the school resource officers here. We kind of play a dual role as, you know, school liaison, police officer, juvenile detective. So I've been with the department for about five, six years now, police officer for a total of around 10. Prior to this, I did work for the state of Massachusetts. I worked for Mastot. But other than that, we Matt and I ride around every day.

Sponsor Message And Discount Code

SPEAKER_02 2:05

Just a quick break, guys. I'm gonna talk about a new product that I really like. I actually bought one of their hoodies. It was amazing, and I really enjoyed wearing it. Uh this episode is gonna be supported by Deemed Fit. Deemed Fit is a first responder-owned activewear and a leisure brand. And one thing that I genuinely like about them is that they support different causes. I actually gave a few people I know who work with first responders, our nonprofits, their name to uh Deemed Fit, and I know they're talking to them. They do a lot of initiatives and collections that are based on mental health for first responders. And if you go there right now and you buy anything, including the mental health support stuff, uh use the code R D A 15. That's right, R D A 15 to get 15% off on any products that you get. Again, it's called R D A 15. Go to Dmfit.com, D-E-E, M-E-D, F-I-T.com, and enjoy 15% off at checkout to save. Now, right back to the episode. Well,

Building FSU To Break The Cycle

SPEAKER_02 3:06

maybe it's a good place to start, you know, family services. So you ride along, point out what's wrong, and then go back home and have your sandwiches. Is that what you guys kind of do? What does that even mean? Because I think that what happens is I've been in the community in the area for several years. I know what you do, but sometimes they're like, what does family services do? They just kind of hand out a few cards and then go on their merry way. What do you guys do? I I'll start with you because I think you know, we'll we'll go a little more about the police side particularly, but you're the coordinator. I think there's two different roles there, too. But let's start about the police side. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Yeah, absolutely. So I've kind of been involved with this family services unit from the inception. Our now chief, Chief Tizino, came, approached me. I have experience in writing grants. He approached me about writing a grant for from the Department of Mental Health to create this unit. This was kind of his brainchild. And it addressed the fact one of the things that we saw in the community is we were we were doing the proverbial merry-go-round, right? So we would we would respond to a call, say, you know, there was a domestic or there was an argument at a house. We'd fix the problem that was there currently, but there might have been an underlying issue. Maybe the heat's not on the house, maybe the, you know, there's mental health challenges going on in the household. So we we put the band-aid on, right, per se, but we weren't fixing the root cause. So we just kept going back again and again and again. And Chief had a great idea, like, hey, how do we create a unit that fixes the root of the problem or can help with the root of the problem rather than just uh going again and again and applying band-aid after band-aid and not fixing the issue. So essentially we were created through that vision, how we can, you know, identify problems in the community and how we keep responding to them, and then from there how we can better address those problems.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

And I think the merry-go-around is something that every police officer has lived through. Absolutely. You know, we we're we're not supposed to call them returning customers anymore because that's not PC. But I don't have to be PC, you have to. Yes. Um, but I think that what I what I found is you're absolutely right. Even when we started the jail diversion program, we did a great job in framing him with that, but the same thing happened. We'd go see John Doe, and then we'd see John Doe again, put him in the hospital for three days. Here's John Doe again. Right. And the problem was always getting to the root cause. Maybe I can turn to you, Amanda, and talk about what is addressing the root cause. Is it just kind of like addressing that individual, addressing the family, addressing the whole system, giving them resources, a combo of all that, or something else?

SPEAKER_03 5:48

So it's a combination of all those things, right? So why are we continuously being dispatched to this address? You know, what is the root cause that this individual is dealing with? You know, is it mental health? Is it substances? Is it is it a collection of systems involved? You know, is it family? Is it significant others? Is it friends? You know, is it the community? So we kind of try to break down like an onion, peel those layers back and see what it is that that individual needs assistance with. Whether it's, you know, they're off their meds, they need assistance with insurance, or, you know, they just need a medication refill or they need a med adjustment, you know, getting them connected with a provider, if they're going inpatient, following up with them when they do return back to the community and making sure that they do have outpatient services in place so that this doesn't again continue to be a merry-go-round of constantly being called out to the same house.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

But it's not just medical, right? I mean, I mean, can you talk more about the other stuff that's besides medical?

SPEAKER_03 6:45

Yeah. So we, you know, we respond to domestic violence calls as well, substance abuse. Pretty much if it's not a parking ticket, we're we're involved somehow. You know, whether it's a runaway child, you know, why is this child continuously running away? Why are they hypersexualized or why are they seeking attention from, you know, unsolicited men online or women online, whatever it may be, and trying to, as a unit, collectively brainstorm as to how we can support this individual, but also support the family to best understand why the child is struggling? That's one example. When it comes to domestic violence, like Cody had mentioned, you know, why are, you know, mom and dad or why are these partners arguing constantly, whether it's physical or not? Like what is the root problem here? Is it because, you know, there's a financial burden? Is, you know, are is it stress? Is it postpartum? Are they brand new parents and they don't know how to handle the stresses of being new parents? So just trying to figure out what it is that the family is struggling with that is causing this ticking time bomb, essentially.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

And I'm sure that your experience with the SRO and our school resource officer, I'm sorry, plays a factor too. And working in tandem with those SROs in the different schools probably helps tremendously.

Getting To The Real Root Cause

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Yeah. And and and so actually our SROs are now juvenile detectives, they're they're involved, they're in the family services unit. So that was kind of part of it as well, because they they read they have most involvement with families, right? They're liaison to the community, especially because the kids are involved. So they're involved in the unit as well, and I was involved as an SRO as in the FSU. So that did play a big part of you know how I got into this role.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

And family services unit is FSU, just so correct. Yes. Yes. Just like to clarify, we we work in acronyms everywhere. Right, right, no, correct. Um I like to clear it up for everyone because I do the same thing. We fall into those the those uh type of situations. But I think that with the SROs, I think that there's also a lot of like conversations about what we can do with more what we consider, and sorry for people who might be offended, problematic children in school, and try to give them the resources outside of school so they're less problematic at school because school is what six hours, seven hours? Yeah, and that doesn't give kind of like the support they need. I mean, I this could go to either of you or both of you, frankly.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

No, and I think uh I think our role and sp our our SROs do a great job in that, not that you know, to my own horn, but I mean I've met a few of them, they're okay, I guess. Uh you know, you got up you got Officer Pavosi and Officer Hayes now that are in those roles. And I think we do a great job uh collectively as a unit, including Sergeant Pinto as well, who has Piper, getting involved with the youth in our our community and being able to see have the youth see us as a someone they can go to rather than a disciplinarian, which is which has been the goal of the of the SROs. It's like we're not here to we're we're not in school to discipline you. We're here to be, you know, a connection, uh go between between yourself, the community, and the police department, and someone you can reach out to if you need help. So that that's something that I think we do a really good job here.

SPEAKER_03 9:54

And we try to also just, you know, when they have individuals in the schools that are either struggling, you know, if we have our local CBHC uh at Riverside who they can call to. CBC being what? Community-based health center. Thank you. And um they can call in to do an eval, but if if that isn't feasible at the time, whether it's you know lack of clinicians or timing and things like that, we can get brought in as well to assist with those individuals in need. And and also too, it may just be these children are just scared to go home. Okay, why are you scared to go home? What's going on at home? What can we do to help you, you know, maintain safety and figuring out those avenues so that they do feel safe to go home? And if not, what's what's the alternative here?

SPEAKER_02 10:37

Right. And I think it goes back to a little bit of what I find is gotten a dirty word, and not a to me, it's not a dirty word, it's community-based policing. Is that, you know, we again correct me if I'm wrong. The general population sees police as the disciplinary, and the people are gonna go, you stop that, we're gonna arrest you. Now we're turning into a community-based policing where we're this we help support. Yes, we do have the disciplinary thing if we have to. But I think that that, you know, I think that the chief always talks about how being community-based has become such a better place for Milford in particular, but you see it across the country, frankly.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

Yeah. And I think I think one thing we do really well here in Milford and in the Milford Police Department, at least, is we are and Milford in general, I think it's super supportive of us. I I really feel comfortable, like, feel I feel comfortable here as much as you can say that in this job, because I know that like the community in general usually supports us. And they're happy to see you, you know, like we'll go to the town park, we'll get out to the town park, we see families, we see, you know, kids. Everyone in the community will be able to approach us, they feel comfortable talking to us, or most people I should say, at least. So it's nice that Milford is a I would like to say Milford's a police friendly town. And I think because we are so community-based in terms of our policing, I think that helps us and it it creates a better work environment for us, obviously. And it it just provides like a better place, you know, it it's a nice place to work, I should say.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

Well, one would argue also that with community impact, sorry, because I I also think that that collaboration plays a huge factor too, because you know, Amy Leone has never been on my podcast, and I look, but I look forward to one day her saying yes. But I think I can make that happen. Yeah, well, yeah, good okay, maybe you can, but I've heard that from many people at your office. But I think that that's also the other part, too, is you know, I think about the chief, I think about the SROs, I think about a lot of the officers, Amy and everyone at the Milford Police Department really decide to become much more of a help to each other versus being oppositional. I think that I've seen that in a lot of communities across the state of Massachusetts or the Commonwealth, I'm sorry, that really are support are successful, and it's when you're not doing that stuff. How can more communities become more community-based like that and reaching out to like community impact stuff like that in order to really be helpful? Because you look, community impact is now based in how many

Youth Support Through Schools And SROs

SPEAKER_02 13:10

other towns, especially with uh the ride-along slash what's the name now? I'm sorry, I'm still stuck on GDP. But there's a new name now because we're supposed to call it a default. Co-response. Co-response. That's right. I'm sorry, again, not politically correct.

SPEAKER_03 13:25

I mean, we we do assist a lot of other towns, our neighboring towns that are here that need assistance who don't have a clinician in their police departments, so they can always reach out to us and ask for, you know, mutual aid for a clinician to come out to assist. You know, a lot of the police departments around here, between myself and Amy, they do reach out to us if there is a crises and we we will respond if needed to assist them in whatever it is that they need.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

But I think that it's also even beyond that, because sometimes I, you know, and maybe you can relate to it and you can tell me how Multford has dealt with it before. But I know that a couple of towns around here have said, like, hey, look, we have someone who's homeless, we don't know what to do. There's no crisis per se, but they're homeless. And they call communion back from towns two, three, four towns over. And that's become almost a go-to for many of those police officers. How did those relationships develop? Because it used to be like it's a ride-along, it's a co-response, it's a jail diversion. Now it's become of like, how can you help me? How can we help each other? And I think that that's changed a lot. I mean, you can tell me a little bit from the community part, but how do police get less, I think, and I'll turn to you afterwards, how do police get a little less, I don't know, self-sufficient and really reach out to the community? Maybe that's a better way of saying it.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

So for us, we obviously when we are interacting with individuals, we see what the needs are. And we have those partnerships with other agencies, whether within Milford or not. And we do have Chris's Corner, which is our resource recovery resource center, where we do provide case management as well and they do assist with like housing applications. So a lot of our homeless individuals, we will refer down there so that they can meet with the case manager and they'll see whether they have or have not applied for housing. And if they have, okay, where are you on the wait list? Are you missing anything on your application and things like that? So we do have those resources as well. We do have partnerships with shelters in the area that we, you know, partner with so that, you know, on a cold night, if our warming shelter isn't open, we can figure out a way to get those individuals to shelter so that they can be warm.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

I also think you're selling very short the fact that sometimes you also offer outpatient services.

SPEAKER_03 15:40

So at Community Impact, we do outpatient services and consulting. And then at Chris's Corner, we do have case management, recovery coaching, and outpatient therapy. We also do have an adolescent and adult IOP intensive outpatient program and partial hospitalization program with New England Medical Crew.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

And you can't laugh at me that way, because you know, I'm not I think I've got something on my face. I have to check in the camera for a second there. And for you, I mean, like, I know that you're now part of this team, but before that, you'd done other work. You said, you know, how was it, how did you get to a point where you were like, oh, there's a community impact out there? You know, I'm gonna talk about Framingham in my experience. There's an advocates, there's a smock, there's seven hills, there's a bunch of them available now. But how how do police really go like, wait a minute, we can partner with that? How do we get to that thought process?

SPEAKER_01 16:29

So in terms of how I got to where I am today, it was kind of trial by fire, right? Baptism by fire. Welcome to all the jobs I've ever had. Right. So, like, well there's so much. Let's let's break it down from the beginning, right? Let's talk about the police academy. There's a fire hose of information that you get at the police academy, and they're trying to give you as much training and as much, you know, make you as competent as possible in in the amount of time that they're given. So when you get on the job, you have a semblance of what you're learning. And then you learn a lot while you're on the street, right, when you first start. So I think at the time when I started being a police officer, we were really getting into the, hey, mental health's a big issue here. You know, it was still like it wasn't necessarily, you know, hidden behind closed doors, but it was definitely something like, okay, this is now becoming a more prevalent issue and something that needs to be addressed. So as as a as a young police officer starting out here, it was kind of a okay, I I see we have this issue. How do we address this issue? Because maybe in my old community, maybe we didn't have the resources available here, but where can I go to get them? You know, I know I might not have the answer now, but can I, you know, where can I find the answer? So it was a lot of trabi fire learning who and what to reach out to. And then when I'm came to Milford, a lot of these things were already in place. A lot of the services were already in place, community impact wasn't paid to place. Amy Amy Leone was already operating in the town, so it was kind of eye-opening for me that and Milford's a much bigger community from where I came from. So we dealt with different you know problems per se, different issues per se. But uh, so we were able to reach out to Community Impact, reach out to Amy, have these resources, and then if we didn't have those answers, they she had those answers. So it was kind of learning as I went. But I think now we do a better job of, especially guys we come on to the job from other communities, explain to them, hey, this is what you have available to you. So I think it it's come a long way since I started.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

And for those of you who listen to my podcast outside of Massachusetts,

Community Partnerships And Mutual Aid

SPEAKER_02 18:41

there is Boston, then there's the Metro West area of Milford, Marlborough, Framingham, as I call the trifecta. And then you end up in Dalton, and that's a whole different ballgame. And if you know where Dalton is, congratulations, people in Massachusetts don't know where that is. But the point is, is going out to get those resources. I remember, and the reason why I asked you how it went for you, when I started in 2006 with a jail diversion program, I remember being many times called by police officers, uh, oh, you're the hug-a-thug program. We've come a long way. Yes. That's why I mean the trial by fire. It was always fun to sit in those uh roll calls and being called the hug-a-thug program. It's always great. I think that that's important to kind of like put it out there that we've evolved so well. I think there's still evolution to be had. And I think it, you know, and maybe you can speak about that evolution that needs to be had. Personally, I think it's really realizing that I'm sorry, I'm a very basic guy in the sense that no one gets out of here alive, might as well do the best we can while we're here. Right. I'm I'm sorry, I'm just a basic guy. Like I'm I'm not surviving this world, no one is. So might as well support each other. Right. Maybe, maybe you can be a little less dark than me, maybe you're more positive than me because you're a police officer after all. But where do you want to go with that? And then Amanda, I'd love to hear your point of view.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

I I think you're right. I think we do have I think we've come a long way, and I still think we have a long way to go. I think that in I and I can only speak the state of Massachusetts. That's where I operate from. I think there is a mental health epidemic across the country. I think a lot of our problems stem from mental health that that could be could be resolved if the in in the right way. I know some of my most dangerous calls have come from stemmed from mental health, may not come in as mental health, but substance abuse, mental health, those things step that way. Or if we had just addressed the problem from the beginning in a better way, we wouldn't have even had those problems. So I think that, yes, in the in the 10 years or so that I've been involved in law enforcement, have we come a long way? Absolutely. But do you think that we have more work to do and we we uh farther to go.

SPEAKER_03 20:52

Now to piggyback, I mean, I I totally agree. I mean, between being a social worker, you know, an investigator for for the state and you know, working in the schools and now doing this, I mean, there's evolution that's needed across the board, across the Commonwealth altogether. Milford being as diverse as it is, we are very fortunate that our police department can accommodate those individuals in our community. You know, we have a very large, you know, Spanish and Portuguese-speaking population here. And myself and Detective Sergeant Paul Pinto, being trilingual is very beneficial to our unit so that we still can accommodate and provide services to those individuals that are in need in this community. But again, a lot of these things are stemming from mental health and or substance abuse. It's the lack of resources available, never mind in another language, but just it's just the lack of attainability of getting those services so that people can get better.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Well, I'm gonna go a little further than both of you on this. I think the stigma of mental health has lifted a little bit. I think the stigma is still there. And there's two types of stigma. The one that people don't want to talk about, and I'm gonna say you talk about immigration immigration and people from different countries. That's still fairly high for many cultures. And some of it you gotta respect because it's cultural. But there's also part of it that you cannot because it has to be like a da addressed immediately in a way that is unfortunately in an American culture, and that's not positive or negative. And by the way, I'm an immigrant too, so I can say whatever the hell I want. Number two, I think that the other part too is within the police departments, it's not all trauma, as we talked about pre-interview, but there's also the mental health and the toll that this takes on our officers that doesn't get addressed because it's seen as a weakness. Or when is he gonna come back? Is he faking it and stuff like that? So we have two different types of crisis on a mental health crisis. Number two, number three, I will add this. This is the other one too. One of my biggest pet peeves recently is everyone has a diagnosis. Well, whoop the freaking do. That doesn't mean that that gives us an excuse to have crappy behavior. I don't know if you want to address any of those things, but I know that I within departments, I've seen very good chiefs, and I think that Milford has one of those that if a guy needs to go, he needs to go, and they're gonna take care of him. There's not gonna be a question, there's not gonna be like, is he faking it? Shit like that. Sorry, I swore, but I needed to say that because I know a lot of chiefs that do think like that still to this day. I I survived 20 years, why can't I? Well, that's doesn't mean that they're all made like you, mother f any. But so I think that for me there's still that stigma. Maybe you can speak a little bit. It's hard because in Milford, I feel like it's been addressed for the most part. I'm sure there's there's no department that's perfect, no offense, Milford. But at the same time, it's been addressed well. But I think how do we address this stigma that still exists within departments?

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Do you want to tackle that first? Sure.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

All right.

SPEAKER_03 23:46

So obviously, as you know, Steve, my one of the biggest populations that I see personally is first responders outside of the family services unit. So doing outpatient therapy, treating first responders, whether it's, you know, EMS, whether it's fire, whether it's police, active or retired, it is still a big stigma. I do feel that a lot of the younger generation, they're more outspoken and vocal about getting the help that they need and they're not ashamed of it. It's more of the older generation that are still struggling because again, you have that stigma of, well, I've done this for so long, like I can just tough through it. But it's also the stigma of that's all they've known their whole entire life. So then once retirement hits, they don't know what to do anymore. They don't know what life is outside of policing, what it is outside of fire, or what it is outside of EMS, because that's literally what's consumed their lives. So it's kind of helping with that adjustment. And it's just, you know, all it takes,

Learning The Resource Network Over Time

SPEAKER_03 24:40

it's a trickle effect. You have one person within the department who is seeing an outpatient therapist who tells a friend who tells a friend, and then they're like, okay, this really isn't that bad. Like this is, it is okay, it is acceptable. And that's that's essentially how all of my referrals end up kind of trickling in. And it's like, so-and-so told me that they see you for therapy. Like, do you have an opening or do you can you recommend anybody and things like that? So I think it's it is starting to become more acceptable within the first responder world, but there's still a long way to go before we can really say that there is no stigma. There isn't going to be, you know, a fear of am I fit for duty or not, or am I going to be put out of work because, you know, they're now questioning my mental capacity at this point.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Well, I I have only opinions on that, but I'd like to hear your point of view because I have a funny one and a serious one. So please go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

In terms of uh, you know, like Amanda said, I think there is still a little bit of a stigma. When I got into policing, I I like to think that I'm on the I was on the cusp of the you know that the old timer mentality versus the new mentality. I kind of see it now with our new officers that we have. It's much more accept, maybe accept is not the right word, but there's less stigma and associated with mental health within law enforcement or within being a first responder. And, you know, like Amanda said, one of the things that I see happen is like I'm very I'm I'm very comfortable being vocal about like my journey and like what I've gone through and how you know it's affected me and my life and my in my the job and everything.

SPEAKER_03 26:23

Do you get free therapy eight hours a day?

SPEAKER_01 26:25

I got a free therapist I ride around with. So so I'm all I'm very comfortable approaching that because I know that it it could help somebody, right? And I know that people guys have talked to me about it or come up to me about it, and I in more cases than not, uh I've found that being able to talk to them about it, they were like, okay, maybe I'll talk to somebody, or okay, maybe I'll go see somebody. Or or find different ways to cope with that. So I feel like the stigma is lifting. I feel like we've come a long way. Uh Chief DeZino has been super supportive of us. He, you know, one, we started this unit. Two, we started having debriefs after critical incidents. Yeah. You know, we never had that before him. He he he looks out for us. And I think he's done a great job in the in the department, you know, right now. But I think we do have a little bit of a ways to go.

SPEAKER_02 27:15

No, I think that there's a few things. When you talk about mental health for first responders and particularly police, if they already chose to be a cop, they're already a little off, if you ask me.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

But aren't we all though?

SPEAKER_02 27:25

All right, but we're mental health therapists, we're really off. Right. So basically, I would say that just that's my joke. The stigma has it definitely like changed. And the mental health part, you know, like I remember the jail diversion program. Again, I call it that because that's what it was called then. There's some guys who would never talk to me, and suddenly we go, like, hey, you're writing with me today. Okay. And it's because something was going on, they needed to talk to someone. I'd be like, you know, it's pretty cool, but maybe you should get your own therapist. That'd probably be a lot better than me riding

Mental Health Stigma And Leadership Support

SPEAKER_02 27:55

around with you six hours and we're faking radar because you need to talk about stuff. I think that I've seen that evolution come up. I think that you're right on the cusp right when you said, you know, you've been doing this for over 10 years or so. The younger generation, I had a guy call me within a year of getting out of the academy saying, Look, nothing's wrong, but I want to get a guy on the on the books. And I'm like, damn, that's that's what we need to get to. Yeah. But it really stems, in my opinion, you talk about your chief. I love your chief because he takes away that stigma pretty quickly. Is there problems? Sure, but that's not not always the chief. There's other stuff. But he had a very supportive chief. Yeah, go see Steve. Go take care of what you need to do. We need to change from the top up. I'm not picking on any administrations in particular. I've had chiefs call me out of the blue, say, hey, look, my guy needs some support. Can you help him? And had other chiefs call me and say, Hey, are you seeing so-and-so? We want to make sure they're stable. And I'd be like, How about you go after yourself? Because that's not something I'm gonna ever put up with. That's the great thing about being a civilian. You can say whatever the hell you want. I don't know, get in trouble. I think we've changed a little bit, but there's still a ways to go because I think there is still administration that sees it as problematic, if you ask me.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

And and I think if anyone were to, you know, question whether it needs to be listened or not, listen, I'd rather sit down with you and you talk, we go for a ride, we'll grab a coffee and go for a ride. I'd rather you be upset and talk to me for an hour than me having to go to your funeral next week. Right. I don't care.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

I think that that's the that's the bottom line is I'd rather be bothered by someone than be bothered because I didn't do anything. Yeah. And that's a reality in this job, unfortunately. I mean, what is it the fifth or sixth year in a row there were more suicides by police officers than there were line of duty deaths? I'm something crazy, right? Something crazy like that, yeah. I can't remember the exact stat, but I know that's something like that. And I think that I also talk about wellness visits. You know, one of the things that we debated before the talking here, what I tell people is that you need a vetted first responder therapist, someone who's worked with first responders, because you know, Jane's really cool because her uncle is a firefighter in and she saw him every Christmas. That doesn't make them vetted first responder therapists, it just makes them somewhat lit related to it. Right. But having a vetted first responder mental health therapist who can also help you with like wellness visits once a year, you're the checkup from the neck up. How do we get police officers, and maybe not the like I yeah, maybe a little bit of the younger generation, but I think they get it significantly better than the older generation. Yeah. How do we get the ten and over since we were about ten years, ten and over to buy into that idea? Because I think that's the ones we have to, it's a harder sell, if you ask me.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

What I've found when approaching like people who have been on the job longer than me or older officers, I think if you disguise it as just a conversation and let them kind of come to you in that way, or like you start telling a lot of it's like, hey, stories. Like you you everyone go has those calls they talk about, or you know, and and getting in just getting them comfortable. What I find is like when they're comfortable and they'll hear the willing to have a conversation and get getting them to open up, like that that's kind of how it is with the older group. I think I don't know, many of you.

SPEAKER_03 31:17

No, I I I'd I'd have to agree. I mean, it's it's it's less therapizing, as I like to say. Like, uh, you know, I don't need you to therapise me. I just they just need someone to have a conversation with. And I think once you start just having a genuine conversation and showing that as a civilian, you can relate to those calls, especially if you are a vetted, you know, first responder clinician, that you can relate to what it is that they're going through and things like that. It just it brings down that wall. That stone wall starts to come down a little bit and they are more open to the idea of a situation like that of you know, seeking out a therapist if they need it.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

And and I think it it goes both ways too. Like I I know I personally would rather talk to somebody that I know and I trust. I know other guys are like, I don't want to know who you are. I'd rather just tell you because I don't like you're you're like an empty wall that I can talk to. I don't know you, I don't trust you, I don't ever see you again. So I think there's there's both sides to that coin. Right. But in terms of that older group, I think I've had more success with just, hey, sit down, hang out, talk.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

And I think that's the hardest part is to get them to understand that, you know, like as Amanda joked around, it's like, oh, Steve's the male equivalent of me. And when I talk about Amanda, I say, oh, she's the female equivalent of me. Literally, I've said that too. Yeah. And it's like, oh, okay, I can relate to that. And I think it's that's the other part too, is how do we sell to first responders? I know we're talking about police a lot here, but even for first responders, like, we're just people. Like, I'm not looking to fix you. I'm not looking to, I just want to talk to you, get get your stuff out of your out of your head so that you can do whatever the hell you need to do, so you can be there for your family. Because again, it's not about police or fire. I mean, yeah, great. If you do that job, great, awesome. I want you to be a good partner. I want you to be a good father, I want you to be a good son, a good daughter, or whatever. I don't care really about your department, I'll be perfectly honest with you.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

No, I'd rather you be healthy than your your farming isn't gonna be any better if you're not healthy. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 33:15

So and I think that that's where I try to get the older people to talk about like, look, I don't care. I just want you to be okay with your family. Right. Because you know what, when the police department's gone and they will be gone at some point, you gotta be able to deal with your family, and that's gonna be a pain. And dealing with retirement, which is a probably a whole podcast in itself. But like dealing with losing that identity and all that, if you're not good up here, it's gonna be even harder.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

Well, I think that's that that adds to the other point. Like it when it comes to mental health and law, well, let's let's make it broader, right? First responders in general, having that support system and that leads into like your family, you know, make sure you're not alienating yourself from your family, your friends. Uh, I know that some of my greatest friends are were fire are firefighters. You know, they are you allowed to say that? I you know what? I don't know. Maybe I might get canceled from my own But I know like we have a great we have a great relationship with the Milkford fire department. I you know, I have friends I went to I actually went to Mass Maritime. We a lot of the guys that I went to Maritime with, they're firefighters, they have a great program down there. And they know that if they needed to call me whatever, two o'clock in the morning or they, you know, they saw something and they need to get something off their chest, they know that they can call me. And I know that I can call them. And I think having that support system, the family, the friends, people you know that you can talk to about it is another huge part.

SPEAKER_02 34:33

Well, speaking of how just talk to other people, we're really getting on time here. So

How To Reach FSU And Closing

SPEAKER_02 34:38

maybe you guys can tell say say how we can reach you at the family services.

SPEAKER_03 34:42

Yep. So you can call, email, uh, all of our contact information is on the Milford Police Department's webpage. You have MPD email address on there as well. My phone number is on there. The phone number for the Milford Police Department Family Services line also goes to me, so you're getting me one way or the other. Phone, email, text, day or night doesn't matter. You can reach us.

SPEAKER_02 35:05

Perfect. And Milford only, or can we be from other towns?

SPEAKER_03 35:09

Any town. Doesn't matter. And if if your town does not have a clinician and or does, and you just don't know who that clinician is, we can connect you with that individual, or we can assist you with whatever resources or supports that you need in your community.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

Well, I want to thank both of you for coming on today. Thank you for having us. I hope this was a good interview for both of you, good conversation.

SPEAKER_03 35:30

It was.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

And thank you very much for listening to Resilience Development in Action, and I'll see you for the next episode.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

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