E.28 A Conversation with Sgt. Jay Ball and Katelyn Dehey

We discuss mental health and first responders again with Sgt. Jay Ball and  Katelyn Dehey. Both worked as co-responders in Framingham Massachusetts and they discuss their experience together, the holidays and the effects on first responders and people in the community. We also discuss the reception for mental health co-responders. Katelyn also discusses her new endeavor with a program specifically for first responders. 

Transcript

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Steve Bisson: 0:01

Hi and welcome to finding your way through therapy. I am your host, Steve Bisson. I'm an author and mental health counselor. Are you curious about therapy? Do you feel there is a lot of mystery about there? Do you wonder what your therapist is doing and why? The goal of this podcast is to make therapy and psychology accessible to all by using real language and straight to the point discussions. This podcast wants to remind you to take care of your mental health, just like you would your physical health. therapy should not be intimidating. It should be a great way to better help. I will demystify what happens in counseling, discuss topics related to mental health and discussions you can have what your thoughts I also want to introduce psychology in everyday life. As I feel most of our lives are enmeshed in psychology. I want to introduce the subtle and not so subtle ways psychology plays a factor in our lives. It will be my own mix of thoughts as well as special guests. So join me on this discovery of therapy and psychology. Hi, and welcome to episode 28 of finding your way through therapy. My name is Steve B. So if you haven't listened to Episode 27 Yet, I hope you do. It's about sports and why bring it up in therapy and how I think it can be used as a therapeutic tool with so many people. Episode 28 will be a returning guests Sergeant Jay ball. We talked about his accolades before, but just a reminder, he's a sergeant at the in Framingham, Massachusetts. He is also a trainer in Mental Health First Aid for first responders. And he always brings a very unique perspective. And this time, we also invitedKatelyn Dehey, and I hope I pronounced that right. And if I haven't, she's gonna let me know. Anyway, Katelyn worked as a co responder for seven and a half years with the Framingham Police Department on the four to 12 shift, and is also a certified Mental Health First Aid instructor she teaches with Jay, she is a licensed mental health counselor also and currently is the lead clinician at Westboro behavioral health outpatient services, where she will focus on first and last responders. And I'm sure she's going to talk about that. I'm very much looking forward to adding a little mix to our conversation. I hope you enjoy it too. Well, Hi, and welcome to episode 28 of finding your way through therapy. Again, I'm Steve. So sitting here with Katelyn that the I don't even know how to pronounce your last name kind of we pronounce your name,

Katelyn Dehey: 2:22

Dehey

Steve Bisson: 2:22

All right, and J ball or something like that. I think you've been here before, though. So I should know your name much better.

Jay Ball: 2:29

If you mess up my name.

Steve Bisson: 2:32

I'm French Canadian. Anyway. Well, welcome. And again, we're going to talk a little bit about first responders and I'm so happy that Caitlin was able to join us, she has been a pretty good star in our conversations for the last few shows. So I figured I put her in and I include her. So Caitlin, the first thing I would say is welcome and kind of introduce yourself because everyone gets introduced themselves.

Katelyn Dehey: 2:58

Or thank you so much for having me. And yeah, I actually listened to your last conversation with Jay last night. And I was like, Oh, I'm glad that I'm gonna be making an appearance so people know what they're talking about. So yeah, so my name is Caitlin D, I am a licensed mental health clinician. I, for the last almost eight years worked for advocates, as first a co responder in Framingham on the Florida 12 shifts. I did that for about four years. And then I switched over to helping advocates launch the first call Response Training and Technical Assistance Center. And I managed that for three and a half, almost four years. And the purpose of that was to replicate the call response model across the state of Massachusetts. So we did that pretty successfully, I would say, We when I started there was call response three towns. And when I left we were in 16. So that's, that's pretty exciting to be a part of all that. And I just recently made a switch I left and I have joined what for behavioral health. And we're going to be working with them to launch a first responder first and last responder actually partial and intensive outpatient program. So I'm pretty excited about that. And that's that's the next chapter.

Steve Bisson: 4:30

Well, welcome and I'm heavy listen to the last episode, you should listen to the one before that. And it really does help. So one of the things that I wanted to start to talk about this, you know, this episode is coming right in the middle of the holidays. And you know, one of the things that we you know, everyone talks about the stress for holidays for people and all that. But you know, this is not directed at Kaitlyn or kids both of you, frankly and I certainly have my own input. But holidays have such an impact on mental health. And I find that particularly it's the case for people that you encounter as a first responder and or CO responder. But I also think that within the first responder population, there's an enormous impact in wonder, you think about short staff. And sometimes, you know, if you've had a substance use problem in the past, maybe that re emerges during that time. So I'll start with you, Jay. Maybe, and we'll go back to you, Caitlin. What type of role do you feel the holidays have on all that stuff?

Jay Ball: 5:30

I see it has a big role. And it's funny, just not funny. It's ironic, I should say that just today, as soon as I sat down on my desk, A call came in for a two year old not breathing. A lot of us were sitting in our cubicles, we were going to the call came in also that the mother, the updates were coming in the child was turning blue. Now, I'm not going to the call other officers are going but you sit there and you think, why is this affecting me. But you think you've yourself going to the call, you think of the officer going to the call you think of the mother and who's ever with that. And then a couple in like you said, the holidays now that can happen anytime a year, but just want to bring up that that just happened to longer than two hours ago. Another thing I know, it's not woe is me for first responders. But you know, we've kind of shaped the shows that I'm on to first responders a few years ago, I remember at my previous department in Milford, it was Christmas Eve, and a lady was trying to complete suicide in her vehicle, by method using a vehicle and you're thinking people go to parties, people are having, you know, maybe a couple of drinks people or get together with their relatives. And this, this young lady was so alone that luckily someone saw her. And that didn't happen that night. But it seems to have a dramatic increase over the holidays, where people are doing this, and also first responders that are arriving on scene to make sure it doesn't happen and to get those people the services they need.

Steve Bisson: 6:57

I've definitely seen that impact even personally, too, in the work that I've done. We talked about the suicide rates being higher in April and May for the general population. My experience with first responders is significantly higher November, December, January. Actually, I don't have any stats to prove what I just said. It's just my personal experience, and having had a completed suicide of a first responder during that time. I also think that it has an enormous impact because of so many different things, including seeing so many things. And for some reason having more of those stories when the holidays occur, it really bothers people. But you know, I don't know, Caitlin, what has been your experience around all that?

Katelyn Dehey: 7:38

Yeah, I think as a co responder, we definitely noticed an increase in just sort of an escalation of symptoms across the board around the holiday time. And I think in terms of first responders, I think another thing that impacts that is, you know, the holidays are supposed to be a time for being with your family and you know, going to holiday dinners and first responders work 24/7 They don't always get to take that time and be with their family on Christmas morning when their kids are opening presents from Santa or where they're on Hanukkah, to do those traditions. And I think that can make it particularly hard for first responders in in that way.

Steve Bisson: 8:25

Yeah, I think the lack of presence plays a factor because it's not like people are taking it easy and not having medical emergencies and or Police Emergencies. Oh, it's the 24th I'm going to calm down and Oh, Chanukah just started. Let's not do that. Jay, how do you feel people kind of deal with that when there is some like frustration, especially nowadays with this is being recorded in the summer of 2021. There's a lot of short staff departments. I don't know if any departments are short staffed, and that ends up affecting a whole lot of people, including people who've been there for 1520 years who count on those holidays, so to speak.

Jay Ball: 9:02

Yeah, it's tough. I'm lucky this year next year, not so lucky this year. I'm lucky I have pretty much Christmas in the day before and after off. But between the you know, being short staffed across the board, and also with COVID We still have officers I know include firefighters and other first responders getting infected. And though it's not what it was in the onset, those officers and firefighters first responders quarantine and then their close contacts have to be on also. So that along with being short staffed at these police and fire departments, you've got those days off like I do and then you almost feel guilty it says geez, if I could come in for six hours and cover the shifts or someone does get forced into a triple, but on the other end of it gotta get forced into it. All these things run through your mind and it puts a stress you know, you tell your family at home, that alright it'll be off these three days but your family at work you want them to Be home. Also, sometimes guys without children step up at my department happens a lot, they'll step up and take those shifts, even if it's just a couple hours to cover to make sure that some of the guys with children and stuff can go home. But it is it is a burden when you get to tell your family that yeah, I'm working these three days. And I hope to see you at four o'clock, I hope to see you at midnight, but there's a chance I could get ordered. You know, an ordering for those who don't know, as you get older on to the next shift can happen at the last minute.

Steve Bisson: 10:30

Especially with the medicals that you just talked about plays a big factor. And, you know, I've recently I had someone who told me that they were going to see their family on Thanksgiving, in the you know, there's a COVID exposure. So second shift four to 12, when they were supposed to go out when they don't live in the same town as where they work. They were told, yeah, tough beans, you got to stick around, I can see where that plays a huge stress on the families, it plays a huge stress on that individual. But at the end of the day, do you feel that we have methods that we can handle that stuff, and try to not only have guys who help out? Just because and again, maybe I'm breaking a wall here, but not all the guys are willing to help out? And some guys are kind of like, here's my 40. And that's what I do.

Jay Ball: 11:15

Yeah, no, it's and I think I mentioned maybe a previous episode, you know, there's generational changes, positive and negative, neutral, some neutral. But yeah, it's different when I came up, and it wasn't that long ago, almost 18 years ago, and obviously the military before that. But some things you didn't do. And now it seems guys in my generation see others as selfish sometimes. But we get to look and it's generational. I've the day off, like you said, 40 hours of the day off, this is my days off, that's that I worked my 40 hours. And suddenly he said breaking a wall or anything like that. It's it's just understanding to take care of each other. It doesn't matter, you know, as I brought generations, but doesn't matter about the generations, look out for each other, take care of each other. If a person is getting forced into a third shift, or even a fourth shift, which rarely happens when it can't happen, depending on you know how big a department is, I'll take care of that person, tell them listen, I'll come in four hours early for you, I'll come in two hours, just because they get forced onto an eight hour shift doesn't mean they have to do the whole eight hour shift, look out come in two hours early, maybe come in midday, let them go home, to eat with their family or hanging out with their family and just little things like that, because it is a stressor.

Steve Bisson: 12:32

What about you, Caitlin? Have you seen anything, particularly in the holidays and how people can support each other? I mean, there's so many pasta dinners you can get from restaurants that make you feel warm and fuzzy at a department obviously.

Katelyn Dehey: 12:47

Yeah, I think that piece is hard. And in terms of like listening to Jay talk about people getting poor forced to third and fourth shift like that, in my mind just sends up all these like safety risk Bell's Right. Like you're just just as humans, we can't function that way. And as first responders, you're being asked to do this monumental job every day, but you haven't. You've been working for almost 24 hours, that can't be good for anyone involved, really not for the first responders and not for the community that the first responders are serving. So I think that's such an important thing to try and look at and, and yeah, help help each other out if you can. I know even as CO responders, we tried to make sure that people had time off at the holidays to be able to spend with their families. As co responders, we are almost like first responders that may be a little different. But we are responding to the scene of calls that the police go to. So you know, there's a lot of, especially around this time of the holidays with increases in different difficult times for people that exposes clinicians who corresponds to the more vicarious trauma and that kind of thing. So we always tried to make sure that at the holidays, people got got that time off to not only spend with their families, but to really do some self care, because that is really such an important piece of first responding in any capacity.

Steve Bisson: 14:21

But I always talked about the crisis team. When I worked with the crisis team, I did an episode on that. I talked about us as being first responders and a half not to insult anyone who does first responder work. But you know, we're not quite at first at the scene, but we're kind of right behind it and having to deal with what's in front of us with limited information sometimes. So I definitely see the value in that and no, I

Jay Ball: 14:45

was just gonna say one thing that always jumps in my head. I've got a person I know pretty well. Good and bad. And a person's a veteran. And that person has a tough time around the holidays. I'm closest person and they have a ton of time telling me the whole story. But I just want people that understand even on a veterans level that are listening, when soldiers, Marines, airmen, navy, they go overseas as deployed, they don't, oh, it's not two weeks, we're gonna go home know that there. And things happen. They, and I hate saying enemy. But for combatants don't take a break, because we have a holiday. And we're all sitting down around the table. Things have happened on Christmas things have happened on New Year's Thanksgiving birthdays, and this specific person, they could go all year being sober. And when November rolls around to the beginning of January, that is a very troubling time in that person's life. It's known by actions that persons made, and that person knows it. And it took five instances or five years for someone to finally realize that hold on a second, November the January, we gotta keep an eye out. So I say that to the people listening, keep an eye out doesn't need to be so in the military. But that's, that's one example I can use. Those soldiers and military personnel overseas don't get that break.

Steve Bisson: 16:05

Right. And I think that when you think about substance use, when do we offer the most alcohol during the course of the year? It's during the holidays, and being very mindful of all that. I think that understanding that if someone says I don't want to drink your question does not have to be why it could be like, okay, and I think that that makes a huge difference for a whole lot of people.

Katelyn Dehey: 16:29

Yeah, I would agree with that. And I think to just like, keeping an eye out is such a good piece of advice, not just amongst coworkers, but amongst neighbors and friends, you know, who have maybe, you know, you have a neighbor who lives by herself, and she has no family and she's elderly. And holidays can be a difficult time for that person. I'm just checking in on the people that are around us during this time to make sure everyone's doing okay.

Steve Bisson: 16:58

And I think it's a great opportunity, also for my experience anyways, that I think about how first responders can become humans during that time, because they can we see a lot of the holiday drives, we see the parades. And I remember Milford Massachusetts parade where there's a gentleman that I know that was in that parade that's on this call, you know, it's the stuff the stuff that you know, kinda like people like the could change the perception of how we work. So not only being caring for the community caring for other first responders, but do you guys feel that we're able to address it with with first responders make him more human during this, especially this time of year?

Katelyn Dehey: 17:38

I mean, I think so I think you do see the shock with the cop programs and the firefighters driving Santa around in the parades and you know, doing those things, I think, you know, all that community involvement that first responders have during the holidays, and really should try to have all year round is plays such an important role in in that public perception of the first responders and in the community.

Jay Ball: 18:07

Yeah, piggybacking off what Caitlin said, she brought up a good point, you know, yeah, it can be done year round. And a lot of things, especially my department, we do a lot of community outreach. But the holidays, as you brought up see, originally, are a tough time, financially for some people food wise to some people, and we've got some great people at our place and surrounding agencies, they help us out also. And it's not that we don't want to do it year round. It's just, you know, focus towards the holidays, and making sure that people have someone even dropping off the meals to shut ins off. That's still a correct word to use. But the people who can't get out that don't have families knocking on their door, maybe that knock on the door, they answered, they don't answer, or, you know, you may find that there were two meals being delivered to this house. And then someone answers and they, they start crying and you're wondering why they're crying, they could be happy to drop it off meals, but they could have just lost a spouse two weeks before and two meals are showing up. And they're by themselves. And that also shows us that we can get back to say our housing officers or or people like Caitlin who go respond with us, Hey, listen, this, this, they're struggling at this house. So the outreach is two ways. It's helpful to the community in multiple ways. And

Steve Bisson: 19:23

then we're just a reminder listening to finding your way through therapy. I'm sitting here with Caitlin and Jay, we're talking about first responders and the holidays, but we're gonna talk about a lot of different things here. What I think is also very important to remind ourselves, especially when talking about people who are isolated, socially isolated shut ins, is I think me and you talked about it at one episode. And Caitlin I'd love to hear your input. What I find interesting is that if you have a loved one that you lost in January, February, and now the holidays, the first holiday without them, well, maybe you forgot about it because it happened in February but that person who had that loss has not forgotten about that. And I think that that's when I tell people is like telling someone, I'll be there for you for the first two weeks is a cliche at best. And is everyone's willing to do that. It's that third and fourth week or month or so, you know, six months or 12 months depending on it. That's really what's important. Do we reach out to individuals who may have had those losses? What do we what can we do to support that?

Katelyn Dehey: 20:23

I mean, I think yeah, if you if you can take that time and reach out, I think that's, that's really important. And that's such a good point. I mean, my father passed away when I was a senior in high school. And I won't ever forget that day, which the date of it and but I don't expect people in my life to remember that date. But there's a few people who who do and when they reach out and say, Hey, I'm thinking about you today, like, that really means a lot. And again, it's not an expectation I have of people, because that would be unrealistic for me to think that, you know, other people are going to remember something like that when it's really a thing for, you know, a personal thing. But, you know, if you if you do remember, and you do think about that person around that time of year, yeah, reach out, tell them you're thinking about them. Sometimes that's all it takes, you know, even just with somebody who could be in a dark place and having suicidal ideations and just having somebody reached out to them and say, Hey, I'm thinking about you. Like that could be the thing that maybe stops them from going ahead and completing a suicide. You just never know how far a small gesture like that can go. And so yeah, I think if you if you have the opportunity and forethought to reach out to people when you know that it's a difficult time, I think that's a really important thing that we can all do to help each other out.

Steve Bisson: 21:47

Well, you know, I'm going to keep you on the spot. But right here, Caitlin will shift a little bit. Because, you know, me and Jay, were talking before we recorded and we decided that you know, you are the star of the show, so we are going to go with that. No pressure, but no pressure. No worry. No, no one listens to this anyway. I did the whole JDP at the time, and I know we've changed the name, but I still call it JDP. And Sara, if you're upset with me, I'm sorry. Just saying you right now.

Jay Ball: 22:15

She is She has now yeah.

Steve Bisson: 22:19

I've I've pissed off enough people in my life anyway, I had a great experience with the guys, but I certainly had some, you know, some mixed experience at times. You've had that experience for over eight years. What has been? Do you feel like there was a shift even during those eight years, I know the hard work and again, give props to Sarah, the 2003 2004. Sarah was it in in Framingham, Massachusetts. And she helped break down a lot of barriers. Obviously, she brought other people on, but you did it for eight years. Have you seen a shift even during your eight years there? What has been the attitude overall? And any difficulties that you still feel are still persisting? And we're not talking about any particular department? We're

Jay Ball: 23:02

talking generally? Of course.

Katelyn Dehey: 23:04

Yeah, no, absolutely. I've seen a shift in general departments. I've never started a call response program with the department that wasn't skeptical, a little bit, they, you know, will come like I remember the very first program that I helped to replicate, when we opened the Training and Technical Assistance Center. They, you know, sent representatives from the Department to teach ACC, and we sat down with them, and they came in right away. Oh, Training and Technical Assistance Center. Sorry. So they came to the office and they sat down and but they came in and they didn't take their coat off. And they sat with their arms folded. And you could tell they were not really thrilled to be there. They were sort of voluntold to come and talk to these, these clinician, ladies. And they sat down and said, so we we like the idea of having a clinician in our department. But we, we don't want that whole like riding in the cruiser thing. We don't want that to happen. We just want them to be at the department in case we need them for something. And we sit there and I said, Okay, well, that's what we do is the cold reading in the cruiser part. So we can guide you in a different direction, if that's what you want. But let us tell you about why the riding and the cruiser part is good. And about an hour later, these officers were had taken off their jackets, they had relaxed their body posture. And they looked at me and said, Look, can we just take you with us right now to the department to write in the cruiser. And obviously, that's not the way it works. But you know that just hearing us talk about all the benefits of having a clinician in the cruiser is is unbelievable to watch in front of my eyes, like their whole attitude shifts about it, and the interest and the excitement about it. And again, like once you bring it back to a department there's always an officer too that's been there for 30 plus years and they're like yeah, I'm not doing that, and not letting the clap clinician in the cruiser. And that's fine. We don't take that personally, right?

Steve Bisson: 25:05

shouldn't talk to yourself that

Katelyn Dehey: 25:09

an officer I worked with who he didn't want me to ride around with him for any length of time, but he saw the value of me being on a call. And so if he had a call that he knew he was going to that was going to have some kind of mental health stuff, he would pick me up at the station. And he would, for anybody who has not been in the front of a cruiser, usually the officers leave their, their duty bags in the seat next to them in the passenger seat. And he would pick that bag up and let me sit down, but he would put the bag like on the console in between us. And then as soon as the call was over, and we went back to the station, he put the bag right back in its spot, like, there's no room for you Kailyn. And that's fine. And that was but he but again, he represents the value of having the clinician on scene to help in the moment. And so that was how we did things. And that was great. And, you know, again, it's it is a voluntary program. That's the purpose, that's the way it works is because we don't force it on officers to use. But when they see the value of it, they argue over who's taking the clinician on the road today, because it's a helpful thing, right. And not just for it's helpful, not just for the people in the community that the officers are dealing with. But it's also helpful for the officers, whether they know it or not, in the moment, but you know, you're riding around in a cruiser with somebody who is trained to listen to you talk. They talk, they don't necessarily even know they're doing it, but they talk about all the things that are going on in their lives. And we're not their therapists. So we're not, you know, doing therapy in the cruiser, right. But like, it's obviously it's helpful for them to unload some of that stuff, and that's fine. So it's helpful in in that way. And then it's also helpful in the training way, because the officers will see you interact with somebody as a clinician, and then they'll be like, Hey, you said something out there about auditory hallucinations? What's an auditory hallucination? Or like, they'll ask questions about things after a call. And you'll start to see this shift, even just from like introducing themselves. Officers show up at a call and they say, what's going on? And I show up at a call, and I say, Hey, I'm Caitlin, can you tell me what's happening tonight? And then, in a week or so you see that same officer who showed up and said, What's going on, goes into the thing and says, Hey, I'm Officer so and so what's going on tonight, and just see that gradual shift from that cross training that happens from just being together and working together in that way. And it's really exciting and really remarkable thing to watch happen, actually.

Jay Ball: 27:48

I mean, look, she brainwashed me into getting involved?

Steve Bisson: 27:55

Well, it's kind of funny, because all I could think of is it took Caitlin to get J to really be on board on all this. So congratulations, Caitlin. I've been I've known this man for 20 years. And I work at Bethel. But all joking aside, one of the things that I had felt and maybe that's what you're also talking about, one of the things that I will always remember is there was an officer that didn't believe at all and what we did. And one day it's it's and everyone has their little area that they got to cover. In his area, there was a mental health call. And he was he says, I'll get the mental health God put him in the car, and then didn't quite like he didn't move the bag, he put it on the ground. So you got a lot, lot more lucky tonight. It was I was like with my feet up to my head. But anyway, but when he saw the usefulness of my, my presence, we do roll call, and he would be Steve, you're coming with me. Right? Okay. And it was that one moment of Holy crap, he can be useful. And he started putting his bag in the trunk, which was really sad. He was put on your lap. That did happen with a sergeant that I will not name. But ultimately, I think that that's what is been very helpful when we got to break those barriers as a co responder. You know, and again, since we have two superstars here, and that doesn't include me, Jay, I wonder what obviously, you've worked with Caitlin. And you know, we've all done a horrible it's been horrible, Steve. And I know and that's I mean, you only talk about bad things when we when we're not on the air just we're just recording the talk me and you but when we record you say good things, but ultimately, I wonder how you felt she's impacted her time there. And any of them obviously, because I know I don't want to talk about specific departments but I've been in the not directly always involved but since 2004 I've seen many many different clinicians due to ride alongs How is Caitlyn really impacted not only you who is now converted and only does mental health, but other stuff.

Jay Ball: 29:58

Converted Oh geez. I feel like it changed her Legends,

Steve Bisson: 30:00

something. That's all they're doing. It's an intervention. Right?

Jay Ball: 30:03

They'll Chinon right that you guys are ganging up on me. No, Caitlin. It's I hate to say multifaceted, but I remember taking Caitlin I think her an island one one call together. It's one I remember was down on Second Street, in the city I work in. And I had her down there, it was almost like, I knew what Caitlin did. I knew how she did things I was already 50%. Believing in the program, I always believed in the program, I just had walls up on myself. And I remember being gathered, and she probably doesn't remember it, or she does. And it's a totally different story that I'm about to tell. But she was handling something on her own. And I was walking in and out of the house and my mentality as a police officer was she's gonna do her job. She knows how to do a job. She's a pro at this. But I don't want anything to happen to her. And I don't know if it was a brotherly thing, a family thing or because I'm, I'm old now. It was like she's gonna think but I always want to check on her. And I wasn't leaving. And I know that some, quote unquote, correspondence units. Think that oh, yeah, we'll just yeah, we sent someone there. No, you know, I get Caitlin with me. And in handed him with that senior work seeing her talk to people, also the effect she has had on the police department. But most importantly, she's been my partner teaching for the past couple of years. And I always call it a boss shoe to the boss. But the thing was, she's she's taught me a lot in the classes, we share a lot about our personal lives to the students to have that lived experience in the real world of spirits. And, and to know why Caitlin, I'm not going to give a spoiler alert, you have to come to a class we teach. But to see some of the things that Caitlin puts out there that she doesn't need to put out there. She's got enough education of experience on this job and, and live saved is the best way of saying it, to just go with the class and go with the flow. But she puts personal stuff out there to show that number one, she's human. And in number two, this is how you get through it. This is how you deal with it. We're all we all have things in our lives and nothing wrong with that. So knowing her over those years, she's had a direct effect on myself, but I know other police officers also. Well, it's definitely something

Steve Bisson: 32:19

that you know, you mentioned earlier, Caitlin, what you just said, what I found eventually with time is that they'd want you to have the right along because they want to talk about shit going down in their lives. And bringing that human side to mental health and that we're not so stringent and being human, I think is really the difference between a clinician that lasts years in this field versus a clinician that lasts months. Who wants to keep that? I don't think professionalism is the right word, but that stoic view, and I think that you sharing who you are in those classes, as well, as you know, with others, I really think that that helps, was that intended the way you've done it? Or it was just like, unintentional that it developed that way?

Jay Ball: 32:59

I don't,

Katelyn Dehey: 33:02

I don't really know. But I think I, as a clinician and training, they always talk about like, being careful with self disclosing things. And you should only do it in in a therapeutic way if you're going to disclose things about yourself. And obviously, you know, when I'm teaching a class and not in therapy, but I think about it that way, like listen, I'm I'm standing in front of this group of first responders, trying to get them to like buy into mental health is a thing, and we need to pay attention to it for everyone, not just the general public. And it's important for you also. And I feel like I can preach about that and talk about it from an academic standpoint all day long. But isn't it better for them to see me here standing in front of them as somebody who I have had anxiety and I have had panic attacks. And we talk about anxiety and panic attacks and Mental Health First Aid and, you know, I'm able to tell them what that feels like and explain it from a personal way. And I feel like you just get farther in making an impact when you share that kind of stuff. Not only with students in a class, but you know, if you're dealing with a client that has really bad anxiety and a panic attack, and just feel like sometimes, of course, as long as in therapy is therapeutic. I think self disclosure can be so helpful for people because they're like, oh, like, I'm not alone in this. This person I'm talking to this person I'm opening up to about it knows what I'm talking about. Like they're, you know, they're not just telling me talking to me about it from what they know from a textbook, they're talking about it from their own experience as well. And I think that also speaks to like the increase in peer work recovery coaches and peer specialists and you know, that lived experience can be so validating and so empowering for people compared to what I as a trained clinician can offer somebody who you know, somebody who's struggling with heroin at Action. I've never been through that I can talk to you about the ways to help yourself through it. And I can give you the resources and all that. But how empowering is that to have somebody who also used to struggle with that has come out on the other side. And now can can relate to you in that way. I think that's such a. I think that's why it works and why it's becoming more and more popular. And I think, I guess that's why I do it too, because I feel like it letting people know that you're a human, not just this, like talking head of a counselor, I think, really brings that human side to it and really helps people feel connected.

Jay Ball: 35:37

Yeah, one other thing too, along with Caitlin, obviously, how can it make her the focus of it, it's all about her. I remember when she was switching jobs, and I didn't want to make data focus. But she did what she did. So well. She quit school for this, and this is what she went through. But I'll never forget the day she called me and said, Oh, my God, my dream job. And not that she was doing phenomenological work in school response working with police officers, but now to hopefully have a direct role and treat in and help of police officers. I can tell to the first responders out there right now. If you're ever going to trust someone and you're ever going to talk to someone, Caitlyn and the type of person Caitlyn is, that's where you'd want to is Steve's the same way. Like I said, when Caitlin said she she had a dream job it is she wants to police officers. She's she's not there to harm you ever heard, she wants you to succeed, you want you to excel, I say something from teaching class. And they look in the back and she feels smiling or rolling her eyes and smiling. But she knows I'm saying these because I'm trying to strike a nerve and some of the first responders and Caitlin, I hate to say she picks up the pieces. But she picks up the pieces she she helps. She wants to help first responders. It's just I could keep going on and on. But that's the type of person she is. And there's a lot of people out there like that that want out first responders and it's up for first responders to buy into that.

Steve Bisson: 37:04

And I think before you even came on Jay, me and Caitlin, we're having a conversation, I think that the hardest part of wanting to help a first responder is a lot of therapists fall short of understanding of meeting the person where they're at. And I know that that's part of our jobs as a therapist. But I also feel like we either worry about how we're going to be seen by the police officer, or we use methodology that may not be as effective for first responders in general. And I don't know if that's been your experience to both of you. But this is probably a question for both. I know that you switch recently, Caitlin, so I know that you're still working on the program. But one of my experiences is really dead. Some of these programs fall flat because they don't really meet the officers, or firefighters or the EMTs or paramedics but the first responders in general, where they're at is that something that you feel is true, or do you feel like I'm kind of over generalizing here?

Katelyn Dehey: 38:00

Oh, I think that's, I think that is a part of it. For sure. I think when you're in a in a clinical training program, you know, you're taught to do something a certain way. And I think the first responders, we have to be less sort of rigid in the way we do some of the things that we would typically do in therapy, and be a little more flexible and meet them where they're at. Because otherwise, they're out the door, they're not coming back. And I think the other part of it too, and I've heard horror stories of police, or firefighters or even EMTs going to a therapist to isn't familiar with first responder culture. And that's also a problem. Because if you're not familiar with that culture, your clinicians can get caught up in not understanding like, the language or not understanding certain things. And so then the first responders feel like they have to explain themselves. And we're, I heard a story once about a first responder who went to a clinician who like wanted to know, their coolest story like

Steve Bisson: 39:10

that, more often than not, that's the case. So inappropriate,

Katelyn Dehey: 39:14

like, that is not your, that is not your role ever. You wouldn't ask a patient who was a bank teller that like, you know what I mean? Like, you know, I think people get caught up in that and sort of the glamour that society has put on on the first responder, you know, for movies and TV shows and all that and I think people get caught up in that and, and, you know, you have to understand the the first responder culture and that it really is a culture in and of itself and that, you know, there's, you know, a lot of dark humor used for coping and, and you can't be offended by that stuff. Like, you know, like, you just can't because otherwise you're you're never gonna make it as a clinician of a first responder. Gotta be okay with values that I roll with things and, and it does help to know the language I had, I did do some police outpatient therapy. And I had a client who was one day talking about going on a Q five call and like, Okay, well, I happen to know what IQ five is, for those of you listening who don't that's like the police code, if you will, for somebody who's suicidal. And if you've not heard that term, then as a clinician, you're having to say, can you tell me what a key five is, and then the first responders like having to explain that language. And that takes away from the therapeutic experience, and really, the purpose of therapy. And so I think that is also something that plays a big part in

Steve Bisson: 40:47

in that I think that cultural competency is so important. And I think that that a lot of people talk about Q five, there's other languages that occur. And they're different from from state to state to I mean, I didn't have to be told what a Bob was when someone explained to me that they had the Bob or Fred or whatever, and Bureau probation for the uninformative it's looking at any type of arrests or that you've been, you've had, again, just a reminder, finding your way through therapy sitting with Jane, Caitlin talking about first responders. And I think that cultural competency, and dark humor is key. I mean, if I didn't have dark humor in my work, not only for me, I think that I would have been very competent with the first responders and for me, I need it to survive in general, I think we can do a whole show on really bad jokes that people make. And I as we sent him, I did another one with crisis work, I find that with crisis work, we do the same thing. And it's a great way to get uninvited to a lot of parties for us. But Jay, Jay, what about you? What are your thoughts about like, maybe the cultural competency and everything else that goes with being, you know, maybe someone who is interested in working with first responders, who may be a mental health counselor or social worker would have

Jay Ball: 42:00

died, it's usually Kayla, I talked about this, we've talked about a bunch of times, you're special, you're special person, for being in the psychological field. First of all, clinicians, therapists, whatever. We're working with police officers, ridiculous police officer, you've got to be, you've got to be a really, really, really special person. Some of the things that come up in our mouths, some ways we act. I know I first started teaching again, when she was still an author that I want to teach with her class. I know every time I opened my mouth, she was like, Oh, God, Lord Jesus, what's coming out of his mouth next. But we see things and it's not to offend. But the like you said cultural competency. Also, the dark humor with, we're not trying to offend anyone. And a lot of people think things are offensive. They may be everyone's different. But it does take you have to have an understanding that of the coping mechanism. As a police officer, we're not trying to make fun of anyone. We're not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, but things do slip out. And Caitlin, for example, extremely professional, but she laughs and sometimes she'll say something along those lines, or if it's a little overboard, so roll our eyes and just, she gives that I say that I have that fatherly or brotherly thing on that call. So give me that like motherly Look, when I say something that I probably shouldn't say. But it takes a special type of person to work in a police department. It's not built for everyone, an office, it's a controlled environments, a cruiser the street is not. And that doesn't make any person that doesn't want to work outside an office as a question or a therapist doesn't make them any more any less of anyone else. It's just a different, different way of thinking this. And I look at as sometimes people are detectives, they want to sit there and they want to investigate, I spent most of my time as an investigator, but I love the street also. But the two different things. That call comes in like today with that baby, not breathing. I wanted everything in the world to jump on the cruiser go up there. But that's not my assignment. All right. So it's just a different assignment within there, and it takes a special person to hang out a police department. Think of being the most uncomfortable. you've ever been in a situation and not saying this is right. But the most uncouple Have you ever been in a situation you're by yourself and you're the only one? And think of how you felt? That's sometimes what a clinician feels like in a police department? And I won't say it because I've never been that but Caitlin's that kind of right when you first start out?

Katelyn Dehey: 44:32

Yeah, I mean, it depends on a little bit. Now. It depends on the department, you know, in Framingham call response is very institutionalized. Their their call response has been there longer than a lot of the officers that are there. So it takes I think, a little less time for new clinicians in that department to get adjusted in that way. But it is it when you are the only clinician in a police department it can be overwhelming and one of the things that we tell our clinicians is that the first six months, like all you should be doing is developing relationships with the people in the department. Because for this to work, they have to trust you, and you have to trust them. And part of the thing, like one of the fastest ways to like, get them to not trust you is to try and correct that non PC language, or, you know, educate them about how what they said was offensive, or they don't, that's not our role, our role as a co responder in a police department is not to change and educate, change their language, our role was to be able to help them on the scene with people in a crisis. That's our role. And they do change their language, to some extent work from just from watching us do what we do. And you'll see that happened. But even still, you know, one of the hard parts about call response right now is finding clinicians that not right now always is finding clinicians that can can sit with that and sit with that discomfort of maybe hearing an officer say something that makes them uncomfortable. And you know, when we used to, when I used to be involved in interviewing new clinicians, I'd say, Would you be able to sit with a situation like that, and then process it in supervision? Or would you have to say something to that officer in that moment, and the ones who said, Oh, I'd have to say something in that moment, then then this isn't the job for you. Because you say something in that moment. And that's the fastest way to get you out of that loser and never ended again, because that's not what we're there for. And you have to be able to fit with that and be okay with that. And, again, it's like Jay said, it's not for all clinicians, and that's okay. It doesn't working with adolescents would not be the clinical job for me on a regular basis. There's different there's different populations that people work with, and they're not for everybody. And that's okay. But you have to be able to know that about yourself as a clinician.

Steve Bisson: 47:03

And I think that using the doc about certain things like I've always, I remember one of my first experiences that I was going to a call for a crazy, not my words, the name of the and I'm like, Alright, let's go see the crazy. And then we kind of took care of it. And I said, and he says that was crazy. So well, technically all freaking crazy. So just adds another one to the list. And that kind of showed that the language can be a little bit determined, without saying, Hey, listen, you can't say that word, it's not appropriate. Because I'm sure that if I said that I would have lasted a full night on that cruiser and never been in there again. And the other analogy that I give for people who work because I've worked with parole, probation, I've been in jail for the men working from mental health, they say our job is to live on an island, and that sometimes we will prime public safety, and sometimes we will provide public health. And if you're willing to live on the island, where someone's going to be angry at you sometimes, then you're fine, you're gonna do this job really good, just gonna get used to it. But sometimes, at some point in time, you know, we need to figure out what is more important. That's a very tough call, it's got to take a lot of clinical skills. And it also takes a lot of courage to disagree with someone, whether it's a public health level or at a public safety level. I know that Jay, you wanted to say something, but I wanted to throw that out. Because I think my interviews when I did interviews for all those jobs, I would always say, are you willing to live on an island? And if you're not willing to live on an island, cool, that's all good for me. But if you're not willing to live on that island, then that's not a job for you.

Jay Ball: 48:33

So it's glad to actually you said that, because you mentioned one thing. I just want to clarify to people that are used to the culture. Yes, things really bad are said sometimes, but the majority the 99.9% it's not, you know, racist or bias, or sexist or harassment. It's like Steve sent, got a crazy call or something like, you know, Caitlyn said not not PC. There'll be a, you know, tongue in cheek thing. Nothing, nothing offensive to those things. So when we talked about the dark humor for those that don't know, that's the kind of thing and I'm glad you said, because that's the one I'm going to jump back to Steve, when you say not going crazy call. You say that to some some people in the mental health field like, Oh, my God, he called crazy. That's kind of like the things that are said yes. offensive to some absolutely. But it's nothing over the edge is making anyone uncomfortable.

Steve Bisson: 49:33

Right. And I think that you're absolutely right. And it's clear. I wanted to mention that too. So thank you for saying that. You know, my experience. And Caitlin, I'll turn to you about being a woman in the department when you're working at a call response, but for me, I never heard racial slurs. I never heard anything of that nature. That was said, and you say 99% we'll agree to disagree because I think it's more than a 9095 range but we'll agree to disagree. I'm not there guarantee. Sorry. Uh, you know, I, we all have different points of views. I think that that never happened when the obvious or maybe, you know, we're two guys and I'm gonna turn to a woman here because I, you know, have you had that experience that people were sexist or misogynist or anything like that?

Katelyn Dehey: 50:20

Oh, you know I, I've never had that experience in directly I have known clinicians that have had that experience, but it's rare and it was the one that thing I'm thinking about was a very isolated situation. But no, I, you know, on eight years, I never, I never encountered any racial slurs or any anything overtly inappropriate that made me so uncomfortable that I like, had to call my supervisor or anything like that. I mean, I did my clinical internship at a detention center. And even working as a, as a woman in a detention center unit full of men. That was never my experience either. It was interesting, because some of the corrections officers who are female had different experiences than I did with that. And I think part of that was my role, right? Like I was a clinician, I was there to be helpful to them rather than the corrections officer role, which is very different. So I think, overall, as a clinician and a police department, I felt most of what I felt from police and dispatchers was this overall sense of like, being part of the team and being part of the family and really looking out for me, I always felt very protected very safe. You know, one of the questions we used to get a lot during interviews was do you feel safe in this job, and I always did, I always felt safe and in, in all, you know, and I was on some like hot calls with people barricaded with guns, and I never once felt unsafe, because as much as we tell them not to worry about us, we're still civilians in their cruiser, and in the back of their head somewhere they obey keep that in their mind, and they make sure always made sure that that is okay. For ya know, I mean, I, my experience with first responders, and not just firefighters and EMTs on calls, and obviously been a fantastic experience, because now I'm here and I'm in a new role, hoping to launch some treatment, outpatient treatment program programming for first responders, because that's how much I care about about the population. I feel strongly that there's a big gap in the mental health treatment for first responders and at least paying attention to

Steve Bisson: 52:49

so. Right. And I think that we can do a whole show just on that treatment. But uh, you know, as we wrap up here, it's already been an hour, as usually went fast. One of the things that I want to finish on is that I think that dark humor and isms, whether it's sexism racisms, they're two different things. And I think that we can't, I can't emphasize that enough that to me, having dark humor is nowhere near isms. Because if you throw the isms in there, that's no longer dark humor. That's just disrespectful. And I think that that's learning to work with that dark humor in order to handle the situation is much better. And I think that's what you're talking about. I think that's what Jay is talking about. Because I've never encountered that whatsoever. Whether it's when I was working in departments, or even with the guys who come in and do counseling with me, I've never had that experience whatsoever. I've had dark humor and dark, real dark stuff said, and I'm like, I find Don't laugh. They're not going to really trust me. So I got a laugh, and I'm gonna hit him go holy crap. Anyway, as we wrap up here, maybe I you know, Caitlin, you want to talk about a little bit of the new job and the work that you're doing right now and kind of like where it's heading. And remember where you know, I'm International. So we got not talk like it's down the street from us.

Katelyn Dehey: 54:07

Yeah, so I'm pretty excited about it. We are working with our behavioral to develop a first responder first and last responder. I wasn't familiar with the last responders until rather recently. But individuals who work at the medical examiner's office or the morgue or the funeral home, especially with COVID, recently, they've seen a lot of a lot of deaths come through their door. And so there's sort of a crisis, a mental health crisis in that population right now. And so we're really going to try to focus specifically on first and last responders and create a Partial Hospitalization and Intensive Outpatient programming. So for those of you who aren't familiar with partial hospitalization or intensive outpatient, outpatient programming for partial people attending It's five days a week, kind of like they go to, like you would go to your job. And then Parsa intensive outpatient is three days a week, I'm participating in groups and individual therapy, and really making this program separate from the general population programs, right? Because we understand that, you know, as a first responder, you could be the EMT that was riding in the back of the ambulance with the person that got sections to the to the ER, and now they've been placed at the hospital, this partial hospitalization program. And you can't be in that same partial hospitalization program, right? Like that would not work. So we're really being mindful of meeting that separate space and, and really paying attention to the content of the clinical purchase that we want to take that are specific to working with the different needs for condors have different needs than the general population and not good, bad or indifferent. It just is, what it is just is. And so we really want to pay attention and

Steve Bisson: 56:08

be able to address that. where's this going to be located?

Katelyn Dehey: 56:12

In Westborough, Massachusetts, Westboro behavioral hospital, Mr. Nice, actually discreet location, which is another thing that can be important for first responders, you know, not having not being able to drive past put someplace and see your car in the parking lot. Those are some of the things that we're thinking about and really trying to make

Jay Ball: 56:36

corporated into the programming

Katelyn Dehey: 56:39

in the early phases. Now, definitely be sure to let you know when we're up and running that I'm excited about it.

Steve Bisson: 56:45

Looking forward to it. And Jay, anything you want to plug.

Jay Ball: 56:48

Oh, good right now. I talked a lot. So no, just thanks for having me back. Hopefully, we talk again soon. But no, I just I'm glad we had Caitlin on eight, say we you had Kaitlan with me. Because Caitlin, she's been a big part of getting me involved in things and also looking at myself internally also. So it's not, it's a plug for if I have to give a plug. It's plug for Kayla.

Steve Bisson: 57:13

Well, you know, Caitlin, I heard so many good things about you. And this was an amazing experience. So thank you. And I hope that you have been thinking season four. If you want to come back, join us. I'm we're going to soon not have enough space for talking. But one of the thoughts I had is to bring in even a firefighter because we haven't had that experience so far. Not that Jay is not validated a lot of first responders are you, but really bring in a different perspective. And the reason why I bring that up is that they definitely have different needs. Sometimes I know it's 80% similar, but there's a 20%. And that's specifics. And you talk about the military and former military and vets. I see first responders, particularly firefighters, I see a different type of problem. And for the record for all of you who are listening. No, not every first responder I work with. It's just trauma, because I'm sick of hearing that one. But I thank you guys so much. And I will talk to you probably for season four. And I don't know who that person is going to be at. But we'll have another person soon. We'll have no space here. So thanks.

Katelyn Dehey: 58:20

Yeah, thanks for having me, Steve. I appreciate it.

Steve Bisson: 58:23

Well, this concludes episode 28 of finding your way through therapy. Thank you Jay ball again, he's gonna come in every season until he gets sick of me or vice versa. But I don't think that's going to happen. And again, having Caitlin's fresh perspective is definitely helpful. She's been doing it as a mental health counselor for eight years in that department. It's starting a fresh new project. And I can't wait to hear that possibly in season four. And in season four, I'm thinking about bringing someone else in. I haven't quite lined it up yet. But hopefully, that will pan out. And you guys, I think you guys going to enjoy it. Episode 29 will be with Jessica Jamison. Jessica is an lmhc licensed mental health counselor, and a certified personal trainer. She has numerous nutrition certificates. I've known Jessica for a while. And we're gonna talk about how how to perceive her health in a different way. She has her unique perspective, and I'm looking forward to hearing that. So I hope you'll join us then, is the season and I'm feeling very generous. So let's go with a contest. Here's the contest. You will be writing me an email to my email address. It's my full name Steve de sel lmhc@gmail.com. I'll put it in the show notes and write contests in the subject line and why you liked the podcast. What what are the prizes? Well, let's start with the most important prize obviously, which is my book. So finding a way through therapy so one person will win my book finding your way through therapy. Another prize will be blight. Landry's book trauma intelligence and that will be another person will win that in the grand prize I will be someone who wins both books. So remember to email me with the word contests, and write down what you've enjoyed from my podcasts. And I will also add you to my mailing list. So please do so before December 31. That's when I will close it down. And you can go in and participate in a contest once a month. So you can do one in November one in December, and we'll announce it in January. So looking forward to hearing from you and good luck. Please like, subscribe or follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for information, educational, and entertainment purposes. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor or therapist for consultation.